You must distinguish action of country leaders from actions of single men. The moral standards among group of people determines how civilized they are. In my country maiming and killing of other people is widely disapproved (so is raping, torturing, and mass murdering of civilians) - this is my comparison. And BTW - I’m not from USA.
I know nothing about Qu’ran, so I just take conclusion from the facts that I get from the mass media. This is also a reason why I asked a question in this thread, wanted to learn something about Islam. Religion cannot be evil, only people who follow it (or follow it in a wrong way).
And do you know who said that? Joseph Stalin, does this name ring a bell?
You know what, not everybody believes that Americans are the good guys who save the world every time (maybe they saved our asses in the WWII from Nazis, but shortly after they sold us to Commies - bastards ). It is also obvious that USA had they own agenda in Iraq and it wasn’t just a war against terrorism. Everybody loves America??? Yeah, right…
Those who attack civilians? Yes, they are terrorists, even if the cause they fight for is right.
To be precise, they are wearing uniforms, so it’s not really a terrorism. If they attack civilians this is a war crime - not much better from the terrorism…
How can you call Christianity and Islam basically the same thing?
And in what light do you look at Christians. What is their eternal fate?
If I’m going to hell, let me know. Dont be nice about it.
Well I’m not attacking any part of you, rather I’m attacking the ones who propagate fear against Muslims. Again realize my points are aimed at proving the point, that calling Islam, or Muslims violent, is like saying the kid who punched the bigger stronger guy back after being hit by him, is the violent one. That’s why I brought up all the points from wars, that not only the USA participated in but also, USSR, UK, France, Italy, and now all the countries of NATO in attacking places like Iraq, and Afghanistan. These are the people I say, look at yourselves first.
And that’s a grave mistake. It’s like here in the USA, there’s two major cable news networks, MSNBC, and FOX News, one is staunchly liberal, the other staunchly conservative, one loves Obama, the other hates him, so learning Islam or what Muslims do from American and Western Media (Countries at war with Muslim countries) is like trying to learn facts about liberals from fox news or vice versa, you’ll just hear distorted facts.
The world we live in has more propaganda than ever, it’s just done in much more clever ways.
This is kinda my point, by the way, the ‘Hitlerization’ of people. Regardless who says it, it proved to be right, in fact Stalin proved it himself! He killed the same as hitler! Maybe worse, yet the world we live in picks and chooses whose tragedies we highlight. When the tragedy happens to the western worls allies, we have annual ceremonies decades later, don’t we. But if it happens to some Armenians, or Africans, or Russians, it’s just a statistic. That’s a sad fact of today.
But regardless who it’s from it’s true. Take the good from people leave the bad, I don’t believe in a pure evil person, there’s some evil people, but if they feed a kitten I’m not going to say it’s bad.
I apologize for the way it seems I’m lashing out at America, I’m making a point (America just happens to spearhead the 1st world, western countries, so it’s my best example) but all of America’s allys support it, and fight with them in Iraq, right?
I agree, every single fighter on the face of the planet is a terrorist; someone who instills terror in the enemy. So every American, Briton, French, Islamist, Christian, Hindu, Chinese, fighter, will terrorize someone. Is it good, no? Is was sometimes needed, unfortunately yes. Because you don’t know the Qu’ran well, I’ll show you one verse, which sums up Islams stance on wars and it’s usage.
Translation: Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows, and you know not.
People falsely assume, that Muslims want to fight, want to disrupt people’s way of lives, hell, even want to take over the west and forcibly convert them to Islam. If you read my previous posts, you’ll see the anger stemming from Muslims is from the simple fact all Islamic lands, were split apart, had foreign dictators put in, Monarchs, so-called ‘democracies’, and our way of life was stripped away from us. The oil rich lands we owned were bought, and the heroes of the west like Winston Churchill actually when going into Iraq in the early 1900s, advocated using chemical weapons against Kurdish tribes – the EXACT thing America, and Britain accuse Saddam (another dictator put in by them) of doing when they realized, oops, no WMDs.
That’s the reality of the Islamic lands today. Trust me, don’t listen to people like bush that they’re just so darned jealous of the western way of life, that’s the furthest from the truth.
I guess the general conclusion would be, ESPECIALLY at a time of war, how is it smart to listen to propaganda against Muslims? War in itself is terrorism, Americans, Spanish, Britons turn a blind eye to it all until it’s at their doorsteps, not realizing the middle east has it’s own 9/11 every day via uncle Sam.
Listen to Ron Paul for what I believe to be an accurate perspective from an American about these wars, he said it plain and simple, about these wars and stuff, they would leave the whoole western world 100 per cent alone, if they stopped robbing the middle east and Muslim lands of their rights.
Check this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD7dnFDdwu0
About 1:45 in he talks about the wars, and 9/11 <-- If people got it like he did it I don’t think there’d be Islamophobia, the west wouldn’t have been attacked in the first place, and people could live the way they wanted.
Again sorry for dragging my posts out, it’s a complex issue that has many sides to it, but in a Muslim - Everyone else dialogue I think it’s the most crucial to talk about.
Regards
Edit to Assassin;
Every faith says, all other faiths are doomed. We say, the former religions, are not valid, because there’s only one way to paradise, and you would agree, right.
Now, Islam also says, if one hears of Islam distorted, or had mental disabilities and did not have a sound mind, or never heard of Islam at all, they don’t get judged based on actions on earth, only those given a fair shot on this earth are judged for their actions here. So it’s not to say some Colombian tribe in the forest, are all doomed to hell. Not at all, and it’s not to say a Christian who believes in One God, all the prophets, and the message of Islam is doomed to hell, but if they hear of Islam like you have and reject it, then yes they will be judged on this earth.
The Islamic policy however is, we never say someones fate in the definite matter, because we don’t know what’s in their heart but as a criteria yes non Muslims wont go to heaven; but Christians BEFORE Islam could, Jews before Christianity could, and so on and so forth.
Those fears are well justified - see what happens in France, UK or Denmark. The immigrants that are cause of the fear are identified with Muslims, because how else should they be called? Maghrebians and Pakistans maybe?? And what about those death threats to the “enemies of Islam”? You must watch out not to say even a slight joke about Muhammad publicly, or else you can be dealing with the Muslim extremist. What happened with the freedom of speech? This is what you call a “Religion of Peace”? People from Islamic countries emigrate to Europe, build their Mosques here and impose their way of life. If they come here, they should assimilate with Europeans, not replace our culture with theirs.
If NATO would leave Afghanistan now, it would probably ended with a civil war. I believe that the mission of NATO is important to the peace in that region.
The facts are that Muslim extremists are killing a lot of innocent people. This you call a distorted facts?
What annual ceremonies? You think that we have some ceremonies because of 9/11??? We have only ceremonies that directly relates to my country. Maybe a year after 9/11 there was some TV news report, but that’s all. Personally, for me more important were the terrorist attacks in Madrid and London than the attack in New York because of their proximity. I would also care much more about the attacks in Russia than in Africa, because for me Africa is kind of exotic continent. Besides, there are wars in Africa all the time, maybe there is some true in this saying about statistics.
Right, because we are all in NATO, so it’s kind of our responsibility. As I can justify the attack on Afghanistan, because it was a retaliation for the 9/11 attack, I cannot find a just reason for attacking Iraq. There is probably much more behind the curtain than is visible to the public eye. And as I previously said, we cannot leave now because it would cause a civil war in Iraq.
This may be my ignorance, but can you tell me why terrorists hit in the WTC towers in the first place?
I don’t think that anybody here in Europe treats seriously what Bush says…
I have just read that in Pakistan a Christian was sentenced to life imprisonment because of gossips that he insulted Qur’an. Another propaganda?
Wow, that’s a terrible way to look at it, you’re telling me we cannot build our Masaajid in your countries? Yet you cite other countries that imprison other people for insulting Islam. It’s the same thing really, same intolerance! Difference is these western countries say ‘We’re the freest nations on earth come flock to us!’, oh, but sorry you need to lose your identity too.
France, Britain DESTROYED and stole from the Islamic lands, now they have the audacity to impose laws against our religion? That’s disgusting. When they went into our lands they raped, tortured, and stole everything. Yet fear against Islam is… justified? Sir what world do you live in? French and British plan to conquer the middle east
Secondly when did I call Islam a religion of peace? Islam is a religion of Peace, War, Laws, Culture, basically everything in a society. Where did I say Islam doesn’t allow wars and such? Islam not only brought a faith to believe in but a system of governance, and a set of laws for wars, and peace, and peace treaties, it’s the whole nine yards, that’s what made it a complete religion in all aspects of life. So where did I call it a ‘religion of peace’, something these westerners use to contrast so called moderate (i.e., americanized, westernized Muslims) with so called extremists (i.e., fundamentalist).
And freedom of speach? Really? So what’s the difference that in the west you can insult anyone you want, any religion, any God, any race, groups like the KKK come about, skinheads, Black Gangs, Spanish Gangs, etc, but in America and the UK, and I’m sure in France and other western nations the biggest thing is to send spies into Mosques find a person say one thing against the respective country, only to have the person shipped to a secret prison on terrorism charges, and get tortured.
Freedom of speech, don’t make me laugh.
NATO is short lived, they have to leave some time, especially since they are being pummeled in Afghanistan, if USSR couldn’t beat an unorganized militia, imagine now, where they’re bigger, stronger more organized, and they say themselves they CANNOT get rid of the Taliban. That’s their own admissions, you think they’re helping anything? France was caught literally BRIBING the Taliban so they wont get attacked!
And so what if it ends in civil war, when it did the last time the Taliban took over, eradicated all of the opium trade, and until the USA wanted a natural gas line from Tajikstan going through Afghanistan, everything was fine. It’s all geopolitics buddy, nothing more. Propaganda, propaganda. It’s a shame really.
Um… YES. I know Pakistanis, I know Afghanis, I know Iraqis, do you really think like when a bomb hits a Pakistani market, that the Pakistanis blame the Taliban despite what the media says? They’re the first to say it was Blackwater USA, and India. The Taliban deny the attack, and there’s never proof Taliban did it. But who do you think the opposing side is going to say was responsible? No brainer right?
And I already pointed out, allll those countries of NATO, America, the UK, compare them to Muslim extremists, compare the numbers, the attack in Falluja Iraq, killed over 1000 civilians in one operation, Iraqi estimated 2 million iraqi children died directly and indirectly because of the war, they had an embargo on MEDICINES AND FOOD, in Iraq.
Based on what? LIES, to get OIL. But again Muslim kills 5 civilians, they’re so evil, American bomber kills one thousand by cluster bombing houses…eh. Right?
Well from their mouths:
Retaliation for attacking Iraq in the 90s, basing US military in ‘Jazeera al Arab’ which is forbidden in our religion, supplying Israel with planes, guns, and money, America attacked Somalia, and had other operations in the region, the list goes on, and America was offered a truces on numerous occasions but the cocky “We don’t negotiate with terrorists” crap costs them lives.
Ron Paul explains it in that video I linked anyway, he basically says they attacked us because WE’RE OVER THERE. And it really is that simple believe it or not. It China decided to make a base in DC, arm Iran up with nukes so they could attack the USA, and so forth, I think Americans would be pretty pissed.
And if dropped two atom bombs for America on civilians can be justified because it ‘won the war’, why the double standard? Besides, as far as I could tell those were financial and infrastructural attacks on NYC, the subsequent loss of money was huge. That’s that explanation they give anyway, just saying, don’t think it’s baseless, “I hate your way of life” acts that the current administrations want people to believe. Last I checked all European countries, and the USA were offered many, many truces.
I’m doing a lot of reiterating, but again, how on earth is Pakistan an Islamic country.
And again the double standard, check my first paragraph in my response. When the west puts spies in our mosques, tells us woman can’t wear a Hijab on government property including schools, and hospitals, tells us we cannot even make a minaret?! That’s ridiculous.
You act like Muslims aren’t harassed here too, just becaues they go to Masjids and pray and grow a beard, they’re subject to questioning, and a lot of them out of no where were sent to places like guantanamo, including a 12 year old boy, he left guantanamo recently you can read up on him. Sad story. He never had a trial, was just send away tortured, water boarded, and such.
Funny thing is Muslims are not, and do not want to impose our life style on you, but the west took over our countries put in greedy dictators, and then they tell us not to practice our religion is we migrate to the west? If we had an Islamic country again, you wouldn’t need to worry about immigration. But an Islamic country is not in the financial interests of the first world countries now is it? The USA has laws against flag burning too, what’s the different? Give me a break the double standards go on and on and on.
Oh and I’m not asking anyone here to say yeah the Islamic way of life is superb, because it’s a way of life for Muslims just as your governments and ways of life are good for you. My point is theres two sides to every story and if you think its justified to split up Muslim countries for oil, destroy a way of life for people for over 1300 years, invade countries illegally, I mean, anyone can see that’s wrong. And sure Muslims do things wrong too, of course, but I just want to put both sides, side by side.
I just hope people understand it, if they like it or not, well that’s up to them.
Way way off topic but the americans saved no one but themselves, world war 2 was won by the british with help from America lol sorry but i needed to say that
And on topic any one who puts all muslims in to one basket are no better then the terroist themselves, thats what these extremist idiots do with the west, lets not lower ourselves to there standards. I mean why not say all americans are fat racist idiots cause of the slave trade?
I think that we have here some little misunderstanding. I have nothing against Islam as a religion. I’m against people that come flooding in to Europe from Africa and some parts of Middle East who have completely different moral standards from Europeans. Mosques are just a visible sign that those people grow in a large number. Those people have completely different history and traditions than French people or Brits, that why French and UK is slowly loosing their identity. I can imagine that, for example, in 50 years from now France will be only a name on the map, people won’t care for the history of France because it won’t be their own history. Politics who let that happen should be send to guillotine. But why should I care, I’m not even from France. I just hope that my government won’t do the same mistake. Now France is waking up, that’s why they want to prohibit burkas and minarets. You know, here in Europe not everybody want to hear some guy calling to prayer every day. This is OUR right.
French law is for French, not to please all you Muslims. If French people don’t want to have minarets in France, why do you have problem with it? And why do you always have to make reference to history??? Germany invaded Poland during the WWII, Nazis killed millions of people, should Poland attack Germans in revenge now? That’s sick!
Sorry, I didn’t check the origins of that term.
Actually, we can’t. Our laws forbids from hurting religious feeling, but nobody gets killed because of that. The punishment is proportional to the crime. That’s the main problem with the so-called extremists. They wan’t to penalize for everything with death.
If it was your country, would you like to have a civil war? I guess not! This place can turn to hell as soon as NATO leaves Afghanistan. But again, why should I care…
I wasn’t talking about attacks in Afghanistan nor Iraq, I was talking about attacks in Europe and USA. Or maybe their victims aren’t innocent? And I cannot justify the American bombings either. In general, I don’t accept the rule “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth”.
That’s pretty fucked up. But I’m also almost sure that that European quota of NATO had nothing to do with those attacks where civilians were killed.
No, it’s not right.
So they waited about 10 years to take their revenge??? They just couldn’t let it go? They knew that it will just inflame the conflict, but they did it anyway? So even if we leave Iraq, some day Taliban can just decide to take a retaliation on USA and Europe. For me that just a good reason to stay in Afghanistan, not to let the Taliban grow in power!
I think that the cost of dropping the atom bombs was too great, I think it was a mistake.
Forgive me my ignorance.
You must be blind not to see a difference here. If Pakistanis don’t want to have Christian churches, why don’t they make a law and destroy them? Instead, they choose a violent approach, they burn Christian houses and kill many Christians. Pakistanis give life sentence to Christians, while here, in Europe, nobody goes to prison because of personal believes. Still don’t get the difference?
Again, what this have to do with Europe??? Don’t put all western civilization into the same bag!
I really wouldn’t have anything against practicing your religion by anyone if it didn’t stand so much out. Because of burkas there is this obvious division between “us” and “them” - Muslims just don’t integrate with locals because of that, these cultural differences are too big. Another thing are minarets - I don’t think that anybody must to call you for prayers, you should remember when to go to temple yourself. And the last one - breaks for prayers. I read somewhere that a bus driver in England stopped the bus because he had to pray and all the passengers had to wait until he finished. If he must pray at this specific moment, he should have taken a different shift. I don’t think it is fair that Muslim have some privileges only because of their religion.
What does having an Islamic country have to do with immigration??? People emigrate because they wan’t better living standards, there is no big philosophy behind it. And I’m sorry, but I really didn’t get that part about burning the flag.
You expect people to understand you, and I think that you don’t even try to understand my point of view.
I must be missing something, but where is the religion of either the victim or the perpetrator given? The only thing identified in the article was the region of origin of the victim (“North African”/“maghrébine”) and that the motive appears to be jealousy (“jalousie”). The perpetrator was not identified at all.
How is this evidence? You found a woman sprayed with acid in France? So what? It’s a terrible crime, yes, but not really relevant, is it?
This one is not acid but petrol and I can’t find any evidence that the perpetrators were Muslim. And, from what I’ve seen according to the stories I’ve read, what happened was illegal and being investigated by police.
Let me tell you something: Crime exists. Religion is just one of the MANY motivating factors that could lead to crime. Religion is like a gun or other factor; it is amoral and not to blame for the act.
I could DEFINITELY find crimes perpetrated by and influenced by other religions including Christianity*. I’m trying to figure out what reason Islam is singled out here…
*except, of course, crimes of today influenced by Christianity (or distortion thereof) aren’t linked by to Christianity in the same manner as crimes influenced by Islam (or distortion thereof).
EDIT: The petrol attack is kind of dubious to me. She went to a bar to get help but when she didn’t get it, she went on to her performance. Why the fuck didn’t she call police?!
And who else could that be? Did you even read the comments below the article? They probably know about this accident more than you or me. Of course, they won’t say in the article that the attacker was a Muslim (it’s not even important what was his religion), because that would be politically incorrect, but for me it is obvious that he was also of “North African” origin.
The title at the beginning - “Rayana, the victim of the attack by Islamic fundamentalists in Paris” may be a little tip that they were Muslims (I will just add that there is no connection between their religion and that crime, its rather their origins and customs). And of course it’s illegal, it’s France after all!
But this is what it is all about - the motivation of crime. Since the immigrants came to Europe you can add a few more crime motives to the list.
If one person says “I hate the French,” then whatever, he’s going to piss people off, not much more: big deal. If another person advocates the murder of those who aren’t of the same religion, or they incite terrorism, etc, that’s a little fucking different. If you’re wrong about this person
Also, of course various Western countries have fucked up the middle east and it’s awful, but from what I read of your posts you seem to think they’re repressing all Mulsims within their borders. How about some examples? Other than the ‘unfair’ arrest of terrorism inciting individuals, of course.
Also, it’s pretty laughable that you bring up government plans from almost a century ago.
There are people that believe that we should kill those of different religions because they’re “terrorists”, and they use their religion as an excuse/reason. And nothing is done about that (legally speaking).
Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.
). It is also obvious that USA had they own agenda in Iraq and it wasn’t just a war against terrorism. Everybody loves America??? Yeah, right…
