Abortion

[gugamilare]

@Drakey83

First off I just want to say that I would much rather have a debate with someone like you. You seem to respectfully listen to what I am trying to say and then proceed to give me your counter argument all the while keeping an open mind. I don’t like when other are unwilling to listen with an open minded spirit and just reject you opinions outright while telling you how badly they think of you because of said opinions.

That being said this woman, my wife, was NOT at all lucky with how she was raised and was not given even a little bit of help to get her where she is today. She was treated the worst possible way that you could imagine… beat, sexually assaulted as a child, neglected (she was abandoned by her mother regularly for years at a time), basically mistreated in every way possible. Needless to say it was by HER decision only that SHE decided to not let that be her life. No one was there to help her do her school work even as a child and no one helped her put herself through college as an adult. She made a conscious choice to not be like her mother and worked her ass off (even as a child) to get where she is to day. There was no luck, charity, help, or any thing else other than her perseverance and hard work that got her out of that horrible situation.

So ill say it one last time… people should stop blaming society for all of their problems because if this woman can make something out of her life than anyone can (my father has a very similar story to this one), no luck involved just a decision and hard work.

I see your point. Well, in this case she was very brave, I am amazed. Not everyone is that brave. She was also patient and emotionally stable.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying that people that go through some kind of trauma could make something of their lives because, well, they don’t always do that. If they could, they would. You might say that people complain too much, I say yes, they do, because they are not emotionally stable, and that, in my opinion, is an ability that can be learned to some extent, but the most of it either you were born with or you don’t have. Same goes with patience. It is like being good at football or math. That is how I see things.

@Drakey83

Okay maybe I should have be more clear because I think I was being unclear in what I was saying or at least how I worded it. In my defense I was writing my responses from the touch screen keyboard of my phone so I didn’t put a ton of thought into my wording or go crazy with examples. I never meant to imply that I thought that the woman was being selfish for being a prostitute (I honestly think all “victimless crimes” should be legalized), from my point of view her selfishness comes in when you look at the fact that she let herself get pregnant that many time and also because she chose to do drugs and have this life style before, during, and even after having a child that she decided to keep. She was being selfish because she only cared about her self and her next fix during these times and didn’t care whose life she destroyed to get it , be it the unborn fetuses or her daughters.

Like I said I prefer to not speak on my opinions about abortion so I was never arguing on weather I thought that was right or wrong, so that too wasn’t an issue for me.

Also this woman chose this life style and was not forced into anything she didn’t have to make any “forced choices”, she didn’t have the greatest life growing up but she had a mother, father, and step father that provided with all you need for a normal life. In a nut shell what I was saying is that some people make choices based on self centered reasons and then use abortion as a quick fix to their problems when their problems could be solved by putting on a damn condom. I was also saying that humanity as a whole is more self centered than they are morally righteous as been shown by my experiences, world history, crime statistics, etc…

In this case, she probably doesn’t have conscience of what she is doing and someone should slap her face and tell her how stupid she is being and that the most affected one is herself. But that is not selfishness, at least not in the way I define selfishness, it is stupidity. To me, selfishness and stupidity are mutually exclusive, someone can’t be stupid and selfish in only one decision.

And yes, it might not be such a bad idea to prevent that kind of woman to make abortions, but then it would be bad for the girls who make a thoughtful decision of having an abortion.

I would also say from my experience, from documentaries I see, programs I watch, news I read, etc., that humanity is stupid and that is the cause of war and crime. People kill each other for so idiotic reasons that I can’t figure out what is wrong with them. Sometimes I feel like the solution would be to put the entire world in a mental hospital for one millennium and then in a school for another.

[Zen609]

@Fancy Pants

mkay thats nice but the only reason women do that is because they don’t realize what they’re doing

… and some are catty and patronizing - but no one in this thread of course.

[BrAndi]

@gugamilare

To me, selfishness and stupidity are mutually exclusive, someone can’t be stupid and selfish in only one decision.

Isn’t selfishness nearly perfect stupidity? Assuming that stupidity is unawareness of reality: Selfishness ignores the reality that the collective happyness always affects your own, but your own happyness not necessarily the collective happyness? (f.e. taxes )
Or what do you mean?

@gugamilare

Sometimes I feel like the solution would be to put the entire world in a mental hospital for one millennium and then in a school for another.

School itself should suffice. With caring and consistent teachers.
But many would be reminded of Communism :fffuuu: … (Reeducation)

[gugamilare]

@BrAndi

Isn’t selfishness nearly perfect stupidity? Assuming that stupidity is unawareness of reality: Selfishness ignores the reality that the collective happyness always affects your own, but your own happyness not necessarily the collective happyness? (f.e. taxes )

That is a possible way of defining selfishness, but, if the only stupidity is about “collective happyness always affects your own”, then that prostitute is not selfish. I think her stupidity has more to do with not knowing that she is risking her own health and even her life by working with sex without using condoms and once more by performing risky surgeries (i.e. abortion) like if she was walking on the park.

I can even imagine she telling that “but my clients don’t like to use condoms” or “I would have to buy too much condoms”, in which case she really doesn’t know that her health is a lot more important than client satisfaction and money. And not that much money, since (I guess) she spends more money with pregnancy tests, abortions and losing some nights of work because of pregnancy sickness and going to the clinic.

About

@BrAndi

Or what do you mean?

I hadn’t come up with a good definition of selfishness.

Definition: a selfishness decision is a decision made by a person X in which X thinks that this decision will harm other people and that those people do not consent to this decision.

If X harms other people without noticing or if X thinks the harmed people are OK with it, it is by not selfishness definition. That is what I meant when I said selfishness cannot be stupid.

If X thinks the decision he made is harming other people without their consent, that is still selfishness by definition, even if, in reality, no one else is harmed or if X is not benefited. In this case, this is stupid selfishness because the selfish decision “backfired”.

However, this definition is not good enough, there are a lot of external facts that should be taken into account. For instance, by this definition, commercial competition classifies as selfishness, which is silly.

@BrAndi

School itself should suffice. With caring and consistent teachers.
But many would be reminded of Communism :fffuuu: … (Reeducation)

:fffuuu:
Seriously now, there is no easy answer. Anything that works will take a lot of work and patience. Forcing everyone into school won’t.

[wheybags]

@Fancy Pants

lol o rite i forgot how women totally are never discriminated against or marginalized thanks for telling me about how my firsthand experience is wrong good thing we’ve got you to mansplain

my heart bleeds for you
[COLOR=‘Black’]and all other white, middle class, educated western women

[geekofalltrades]

@Medkit

In my opinion abortion is nothing more than murder of a child who is yet to born. Plus it’s a very good way for western societies to destroy themselves.

are you really that stupid

god, sorry for being an ass, but I’m sick of people who try to oppose abortion when they have no tangible stake in it. The fact is, the only people who have any right to make decisions about abortion are the people who have a tangible stake. Your weenie “morals” are not such a stake. A woman’s body, her health, the livelihood of herself and the child’s father, the drain of unwanted children on society (as so handily summarized by JohnWorfin)… those are tangible stakes.

TL;DR: Stakes in abortion: your body, your health, your livelihood. If you don’t see any consequences for yourself in the previous list, then GET THE FUCK OUT[/SIZE]

[xalener]

@Drakey83

I know a woman who actually used abortion as birth control and I think it’s WAY more common than you think. This woman was really badly into drugs and had sex for money so she could afford those drugs. She had at least 4-5 abortions that I know of, placed one child for adoption, and she “raised” (if that’s what you wanna call it) the another one. I’m not going to argue with what I believe is wrong or right but I just want it know that there are a lot of selfish people out there that only care about themselves. You might just be giving the human race too much credit if you don’t see how self centered and reckless they can be.

Bitch like that probably SHOULD abort her kids. I mean who would want to be raised under that? Who would even want to emerge from that pussy?

[danielsangeo]

@Medkit

In my opinion abortion is nothing more than murder of a child who is yet to born. Plus it’s a very good way for western societies to destroy themselves.

In my opinion, nocturnal emissions are nothing more than murder of millions of children yet to be born. Plus it’s a very good way for western societies to destroy themselves.

[pyjamasbox]

I’ve got a baby girl, 8 months old. So i think my experience is probably a cut above most of the people on this forum (since most of them are teenagers without a child and are still in school). That said, my girlfriend has had a miscarriage, AND an aborted baby before we eventually had our baby girl.

Abortion is wrong, period. It’s unnecessary. Not only are you killing a precious life that has no chance of defending itself and becoming an adult, the process of doing so is immoral due to the alternatives. Adoption is what i mean by “alternative”.

My girlfriend has (like stated above) had both an abortion, and given birth before. She actually said that both were about EQUALLY as painful as the other. So why not just give birth and then give the baby up for adoption?

You could argue that foster homes are terrible places to live, and that children are treated like shit in these homes…but you’d not only be misinformed by the dramatic medias of television, you’d be ignorant to think that it’s better to kill a baby then to let it struggle through life.

Think about it, what happens when life is taken to us? Nothing? Hell? We don’t know, so we have no right to subject a baby to it just because we THINK it may be better for them then struggling through a foster home. What if there is no heaven, but only eternal damnation after life for EVERYBODY? Probably not likely, but neither is the alternative bible routes.

Give birth to the fucking baby and then give it up for adoption. If you don’t want to chance a foster home, look in papers or online for families who are willing to adopt and meet them in person to be sure they’re fit for parenting.

[danielsangeo]

So, pyjamasbox. Are you okay with the government forcing women to carry pregnancies to term? If you can’t trust women to make the big decisions like abortion, just what other decisions are you going to say they can’t make?

[Soup]

I’m sorry, but just because you’re wife has done those things doesn’t mean you have. You have no right to judge and you have no right to say what someone can and can’t do with their body, especially if you’re stupid enough to boil it down to petty theological arguments.

[gugamilare]

Come on, Soup, be practical, we are discussing, this is a healthy discussion. Pyjamasbox is just giving an opinion, I don’t think he is forcing anyone to agree with him nor judging anyone, but even if he is, you are not helping. Opinions don’t hurt anyone, they just give a different perspective.

@pyjamasbox

I’ve got a baby girl, 8 months old. So i think my experience is probably a cut above most of the people on this forum (since most of them are teenagers without a child and are still in school). That said, my girlfriend has had a miscarriage, AND an aborted baby before we eventually had our baby girl.

I don’t have a child, but I’m not a teenager and I think most of the people here isn’t.

@pyjamasbox

Abortion is wrong, period. It’s unnecessary. Not only are you killing a precious life that has no chance of defending itself and becoming an adult, the process of doing so is immoral due to the alternatives. Adoption is what i mean by “alternative”.

My girlfriend has (like stated above) had both an abortion, and given birth before. She actually said that both were about EQUALLY as painful as the other. So why not just give birth and then give the baby up for adoption?

You could argue that foster homes are terrible places to live, and that children are treated like shit in these homes…but you’d not only be misinformed by the dramatic medias of television, you’d be ignorant to think that it’s better to kill a baby then to let it struggle through life.

I’m glad for you and your girlfriend. Unfortunately, sometimes it is not that simple. Some people don’t have financial conditions to carry a baby in their bellies for nine months, they need to work. Some people don’t have psychological conditions to carry a baby (e.g. rape victims). There is also social reprimand, people judge girls with undesired pregnancy too often, sometimes they are too harsh on them.

By the way, I find it ironic that the people that judge those girls the most are also the people that are against abortion. Go figure. If they think abortion is bad, then they should stop whining and finger-pointing and start to actually help pregnant girls to have better life conditions and not just when they are pregnant.

However, I agree that it should be the first option to consider after you decide you can’t raise the child.

Also, about being wrong to end a life, well, we end the lives of animals without blinking. If you say it is wrong to kill a human, then, to me, a fetus does not qualify as a human, it is a potential human being, but it is still just a bunch of cells without conscience nor memories.

@pyjamasbox

Think about it, what happens when life is taken to us? Nothing? Hell? We don’t know, so we have no right to subject a baby to it just because we THINK it may be better for them then struggling through a foster home. What if there is no heaven, but only eternal damnation after life for EVERYBODY? Probably not likely, but neither is the alternative bible routes.

I think we shouldn’t make decisions based on what we don’t know, otherwise we might go crazy.

@pyjamasbox

Give birth to the fucking baby and then give it up for adoption. If you don’t want to chance a foster home, look in papers or online for families who are willing to adopt and meet them in person to be sure they’re fit for parenting.

It sounds very easy putting it that way, and, in general, this is better than abortion, but reality is not always that simple.

This is my point of view: those who think that abortion is a bad thing should try finding a solution to make abortion unnecessary. Are there too many abortions? Yes, and the problem won’t take care of itself, so, unless someone takes an action, a real action, it does not help at all to prohibit girls to have abortions, the problem will still remain. Solve the problem, then complain about its consequences.

[Fancy_Pants]

@wheybags

my heart bleeds for you
[COLOR=‘Black’]and all other white, middle class, educated western women

i’m only half white and i’m absolutely below the poverty line so i don’t know where you’re going with the white middle class thing
plus it happens to all women so fuck off with your mansplaining p l z a n d t h n x

[Drakey83]

@Soup

I’m sorry, but just because you’re wife has done those things doesn’t mean you have. You have no right to judge and you have no right to say what someone can and can’t do with their body, especially if you’re stupid enough to boil it down to petty theological arguments.

Who is this directed to?

[wheybags]

@Fancy Pants

i’m only half white and i’m absolutely below the poverty line so i don’t know where you’re going with the white middle class thing
plus it happens to all women so fuck off with your mansplaining p l z a n d t h n x

If you honestly think I’m sexist, then, well, I don’t even know what to say to you.

[pyjamasbox]

@danielsangeo

So, pyjamasbox. Are you okay with the government forcing women to carry pregnancies to term? If you can’t trust women to make the big decisions like abortion, just what other decisions are you going to say they can’t make?

You guys act like it’s fucking impossible to prevent pregnancy. If you live in america, there is no excuse to be pregnant if you had no intention. You can purchase condoms just about everywhere, and you can get the pill for FREE if you’re too poor to afford condoms using the medicaid system.

Now, if you accidently get pregnant, then i can understand that the decision is cloudy, but accidental pregnancies are only truly an accident if a condom breaks. If you’re having sex unprotected and saying “HURRRRR I DUN WAN KID”, then stop fucking having sex unprotected. It’s a simple procedure, having kids.

You put your dick in a girl, you cum, and a baby comes out 9 months later. Pulling out is NOT efficient, just like any doctor will tell you. Use common sense.

[Someonerandm]

There is some truth in that, but frankly there is such an incredible number of idiots in this country that we cannot really condemn out systems to dealing with the massive number of children that would be dumped in it. Remember, the fewer kids, the less strain on our governmental systems, and since many people who have these kids are impoverished, they’d have a larger effect than the average kid.

[gugamilare]

@pyjamasbox

You guys act like it’s fucking impossible to prevent pregnancy. If you live in america, there is no excuse to be pregnant if you had no intention. You can purchase condoms just about everywhere, and you can get the pill for FREE if you’re too poor to afford condoms using the medicaid system.[…]

I agree and that is why I said abortion shouldn’t be needed in a perfect world. For one reason or another, people don’t always use condoms and they don’t bother to actually go to get the pill for free. Yes, it is stupid, welcome to Earth.

[pyjamasbox]

@gugamilare

I agree and that is why I said abortion shouldn’t be needed in a perfect world. For one reason or another, people don’t always use condoms and they don’t bother to actually go to get the pill for free. Yes, it is stupid, welcome to Earth.

The worst of it is, you can go to literally any “urgent care” facility and get condoms FOR FREE. They literally just hand them out if you ask. That’s how bad our government wants to prevent overpopulation.

[gugamilare]

I would say your government is not stupid. It is not preventing only overpopulation, but also STDs and those problems will draw much more money than simply distributing condoms to the population. They are just being smart.