A reasonable and compromising solution is to design “noob friendly” modes and maps for those who play casually. In such modes and maps, alterations and restrictions would be implemented as requested by popular vote. On the contrary, there would be “classic style” modes and maps for those who play competitively and would be modeled after HLDM/AG as closely as possible. In doing so, both audiences would be accommodated and satisfied.
@k3nny1550 and @KyuuGryphon: I don’t understand something, really. You guys seem to believe that fun is not compatible with learning new things and increasing your own skill. Isn’t it fun to learn how to play better a game? Moreover, how is that necessary to play well at a game in order to enjoy it? I mean, most people who practice a sport are pure shit at it, yet enjoying it, right? You know, for more than 5 years (say from 2000 to 2005), HL1DM was played by thousands of people (~50 000 at every moment) who were really bad at it, and yet found it entertaining. The game is simple, its easy to kill someone because weapons are powerful (you can kill 3 guys at a time at crossfire or stalkyard with rpg), and this does not require anything special to learn. If what you guys’ fear is to get raped by experienced players, then it’s a false problem (also because there are really few of them). There are ways to avoid that, for example one could
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built a skill quantifier as quakelive has, and make an option (that could be turned on/off) on servers to restrict the access to some skill range,
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train hard in order to compete and have even more satisfaction playing the game,
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create its own mode if its easy to do and allowed.
Now, about your sentence concerning me KyuuGryphon, it might not be the place to speak about it but still. To begin, let me tell you that I don’t give a fuck about video games for more than a decade already, and I rarely play more than 100 hours a year, mainly alone on local @ WON2 (this means that nobody knows it). Still, I do give a fuck about the paradigm shift video games industry and scene followed the past 12 years since quake 3: people are now turned to instantaneous meaningless fun instead of long terms satisfying goals (this is no strict to video games tho but to whole society thanks to liberalism). If there’s something absolute that has “some” little value, it is skill. Skill is something you can export, it gives you more freedom and expressive power, and is also highly discriminative. If you believe that a high skilled player is as valuable as a random noob who can’t do shit, I would disagree. Skilled players discover and do more things than casual ones. Moreover, you don’t make people dream by selling them a game where top players are as shitty as random ones, and where there’s no beautiful ideals to aim at. On the contrary, you make them dream if they notice that there’s high potential for progress and that the game is more vertical than it is horizontal.
Investing yourself into some activity in order to become better at it should be seen as more valuable than instantaneous meaningless fun that will make you act as a loser: leaving a game every time you lose because you don’t like it. I also understand that video games is not a place where people necessarily wants to be good at because it has no practical value, but does this mean that we should basically kill the game and submit everyone to the mediocre aspirations of some people?
You guys are trying to say that new player (you call them noobs) cant enjoy complicated game? That’s not true, learning curve is really interesting for many player and if you are not interested in learning all the hard stuff like bhop gauss jumpin silent LJ and want simply shoot your friends after work that’s fine. Simply don’t use it, play with your type of players and enjoy the game. No need to cut features that you wont ever use just because SOMEONE may use it and kill you with it.
Also you think that pro unfriendly BM 
M will last longer than normal? (because things you want to do are not noob friendly they are PRO-UNFRIENDLY). There are many games that are more noob unfriendly like starcraft 2, not even talking about starcraft BW. Starcraft is much harder for beginners than half life and still is pretty popular. You should never aim on dumbed down gameplay just to get more players, because it simply wont work. Players that are passionate and are willing to improve and really enjoy the game will make the long lasting community, not the kids who thought that game is cool and will disappear as soon as new COD game will be released.
Anyway, new player wont stand a chance against good player in any game, even in game like cs go. That’s why there is matchmaking that will allow bad players to play with bad players, and good players to play with good player and everyone will be happy.
But the discussion isn’t about cutting features that a minority will use, it’s about adding features that a minority will use, and whether that is worth the effort.
This is a very good point. Remember that we’re talking about implementing new mechanics into the Source engine. This is what I kept trying to tell people about bunny hopping. We didn’t cut it. It just wasn’t there, and we didn’t think it was worth the effort to bring back. Now you guys have spoken up, we’ll look into it. It’s the same with a lot of the missing HL1 mechanics. We didn’t cut them, per se, we just haven’t implemented them yet or made a judgement on what we wanted to do with them.
This overall tone of this discussion is getting very adversarial and it’s getting out of hand. Tone it back please or I’m going to start banning people. You are free to discuss the merits of implementing/changing mechanics, and what you think works best. But, there’s no need to attack people because they have a different opinion on how the game should be, or a different skill level to you. It’s about the points they make, and nothing more. Seeing as you guys have chosen to “represent” the competitive HLDM community on here, remember that the tone of the discussion impacts whether people listen to and agree with your suggestions or not. You’re not doing any favours for yourselves by being like this.
This thread pains me but it is too important to ignore.
One important thing that needs to be addressed is the engine differences of GoldSrc and Source 2013. https://wiki.sourceruns.org/wiki/Bunnyhopping “Airstrafing doesn’t give you speed anymore, so the only way to gain speed is by continuously jumping.” And only if you jump at the exact same frame you touch the ground at.
The maps are also very different and this has to be considered when talking about the long jump module.
We should break this down into specific weapons and engine quirks. All of our suggested changes will be a lot more legible if we put them in lists.
- Crowbar
- Glock 17
- .357 Magnum
- MP5
- SPAS-12
- Crossbow
- Hivehand/Hornet Gun
- RPG
- Tau Cannon
- Gluon Gun
- Mk 2 Grenade
- Laser Tripmine
- Satchel Charge
- Snarks
How funny to see you here 
I know new people will have a harder time but the movement part of it is at the heart of the game, not having is really making the game play so differently a cutting a huge chunk of enjoyment out of it, at least personally. We’ll see how things evolve from here anyway, not like I want to put that down everybody’s throat.
Dear community manager, you must understand that the people you request feedback from have different idea as to what path this project should follow. However the motivation behind this project will give different paths a different value, meaning that some people have to be disregarded if you wish to stay true to your goal. If the developers are motivated for this project to be a remake of our beloved half-life 1, both in the spirit at its core and its unique details, then it is natural for them to turn to the most skilled players - those who hold the deepest understanding of this game - for criticism of the current stage of the project as well as guidance on the direction the developers should take. Taking this as a motivation will mean people without skill should be disregarded as their picture of the game is muddy and faint. Now, if the developers goal is to have this project become popular, then you will try to satisfy as many people as possible, which as seen frequently in gaming, would be the casual players. This will lead to a big noobification of the game which will kill its spirit in the hopes that its noob-friendly enough to attract lots of people.
After all of this is said it’s clear that there are some people in this thread who are under the impression that the developers care about the first goal, hence this discrimination by skill that you see. So tell us, Mr. community manager, what is the goal of this project? Clear it out for us so we can know whose feedback is wanted and whose isn’t.
peace and love,
BIAPOS S2
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We look at the merit of what people are saying. It’s as simple as that. Your opinion of the game is not inherently correct 100% of the time because you have a deeper understanding of it than someone else. I’m not going to take every word you guys say as golden just because you have skill. I’m going to look at the reasoning and what you’re saying and draw my own conclusions from it. Attempting to argue otherwise boils down to a proclamation of self-superiority.
We care about making an awesome tribute to Half-Life that is fun, enduring, and balanced at all levels. We want input from everyone.
If you have a deep and complex understanding of the game, you will be able to provide me with feedback and reasoning that goes far deeper than “because I’m a skilled player and thus my opinion is more valid than others.” You will be able to explain to us logically why X, Y and Z change is important for the game and has a big impact, and benefits everyone. Thus far though, except from a few select posters, we haven’t been given feedback that goes beyond that. That’s the source of my frustrations here, and shouting down other peoples’ opinions is not okay, no matter how right you think you are. If you want to prove you are right, then you make a solid argument which can’t be beaten. That’s how it works.
Everything I claimed is logical and well developed. The problem is that it really looks like my understanding of the game is too deep for people to really understands what I mean. You know, understanding is like a stair: you need to climb to the 10th steps if you want to ever understand the 11th and 12th ones. Does this sound arrogant? Clearly, but isn’t it true? Who else here, can claim to understand the game as I do? Moreover, does it look like I really argue for my own interests like other people have clearly shown to do so?
Also, if you believe that it is possible to make a game that is everything at once (balanced at all levels, you claim), then I invite you to take more than five seconds thinking about what I said (both here, and above). Feel free to ask for precisions.
PS: if you believe that my arguments are not solids and can be beaten, then feel free to do it. However, you shouldn’t forget that all I do is arguing in favor of a skilled oriented game. If you want BMDM not to be a skilled game, then it’s no need asking for solid arguments in this respect. What about being honest about the intention you guys want to do with this BMDM? It would simplify all this talk, you know. Choose a side, we are all listening to you.
EDIT for JeffMOD below this post: No, it is not possible to make a game that is vertical enough and allows casual gamers not to get crushed by good ones. If it were, then it would mean that the contribution of skill (aim, moves, gameplay) to kill your opponent is not high, that is, it is not effective to be skilled in order to win. This means that the gap in skill, as high as it can be, is actually useless to win the game or express yourself. Thus, such a game can’t be said to be a skilled game, because it is pointless to get skilled.
Not everything has to be about sides. It is possible to make a game that’s deep enough to take time to master, but easy to jump into and hold your own without having people destroy you without end when you jump on a server, and (though I can’t speak for them) I believe that’s what CC is going for - something with the fast-paced, skill-based gameplay of Half-Life, but balanced enough that everyone has more or less a fair shake.
I hop on to a server with some friends, I get wrecked because they’re better at the game than I am. But I can still score the occasional kill, and feel like I have a chance, so I don’t quit the game outright.
Since I don’t quit the game outright, because it doesn’t feel unfair, I can get better at the game as I develop my skills.
It’s not about taking sides. It’s about not being a jerk to other peoples’ opinions, even if you disagree with them. We don’t need or want elitism here. This is a forum for open discussion about how to improve the game; something that we all want. You are free to disagree with each other or even me. But there’s nothing inherently superior about anyone here - it is a level playing field. It’s about the merits in what you are saying (which I have not debated whatsoever).
“I understand the game so much deeper than you” is not an argument. That’s pretty much all that you’ve argued in this thread. I haven’t argued anything back because I don’t think it’s worth the time. I’ve taken the points from what you competitive guys have been saying and have worked it into our plans for the next major update. We are listening to what you have to say, weighing it up against what we want to do and what we can do. We want BMS to be a high skill cap and enjoyable shooter. It is very possible to create an experience which is welcoming and fun for new players and also has a high skill ceiling, and that is our goal.
I’m just asking you to stop being elitist jerks about what you want for the game, and to stop with the “us vs them” mentality which is running rampant in this thread. Shortly, I’m going to stop asking nicely.
Mr. JeffMOD, how can you honestly claim that you can do both when clearly if in BM you’re capable of killing a strong player while in HLDM you get raped 100-0 then there is some noobification ocuring? Clearly then BM has killed the expressive potential high skill gives you which means BM deviates from the true spirit of HLDM. Can you truly not see this?
The game just got released. it’s early access. changes will be made. which of these satemens don’t you understand? omg.
Obviously you haven’t experienced this in over a decade, but it’s not fun to join a server and not be able to play because every time you spawn you die instantly.
Answer me this: How does one get more skilled at a game when they have no opportunity to play and learn it? If you, as the the popular term among pro players seems to be, “get raped” when you play, you’re not enjoying yourself, and you’re more likely to quit.
People who quit, don’t get better. It’s not noobification of the game, it’s making it more accessible - and, unlike most modern games, BMDM is doing it without being hand-holdy about it; If you lack skill, you’re still going to die a lot - but not so much that you feel like you can never win no matter how hard you try.
You say skill means nothing if it’s ‘pointless’ to get skilled. I say skill means nothing if you’re not given an opportunity to gain any.
BIAPOS just made a pretty good point. The very possibility that a strong player comes in some server and rapes everyone is exactly in the spirit of half-life deathmatch: it sells dream, it gives the feeling that the player is invincible, much more free than you are, and it makes you want to do the same. That’s exactly what attracted me here, and I’m certain that it is the same for many people. Don’t fear that, on the contrary, you should try to produce it if you really want to make half-life spirit lives.
again… then you play on the wrong server. if you get annoyed, feel free to change the server or ask your friends to play some matches on equal skill levels. most pro players don’t even play public.
if i experience cheaters in other games i votekick or instantly leave the server. that’s how it works.
@biggy
The problem with that argument is that, much like the actual act of sexual assault, getting “raped” in a game is the exact opposite of enjoyable. It’s one thing to be bested - it’s another to be “raped”
You seem be under the impression that the opposite is true, and that indicates that you don’t genuinely care if other players have a good time, so long as you’re at the top of the leaderboards, or at the very least that you’ve never given any thought to it.
I’d like to use an example from GO. The number of pieces you have in GO is inversely proportional to your skill - if you’re a pro at the game, you start with much fewer pieces than a first-time player. Obviously, this isn’t sustainable for a DM game, but you should really be asking yourself - you’re skilled. Why do you need to have more tools than unskilled players, when the tools you both share, you’re better with?
@fury
At the current time, though, there aren’t any private servers to the game. This will be changed, I’m sure, but even then, there will be lots of public servers that people will play on, and there’s nothing stopping a group of competitive players from hopping on it too and “pubstomping” everyone.
Yea right. Just wait until the game is more polished and motivate more people to try the game. explain how it works, have fun etc.
If you really like this game, get your own server for the game. then you can put a password on it and play with your friends… or make it completely public and kick/ban people who are too good or annoying. I am good in HL so I don’t have problems with this.
I also may get a server for BM M but I’m not sure if it’s worth it at this point. Atm I still play more HL1:AG than this… So I might rather rent a server for AG. If this game gets better… I will get a server for this.
Edit: In the end you have this problem of “getting stomped” in almost every game. In CoD you get spawnraped by choppergunner or AC130, in Quake you don’t get any armor or weapons and you die a lot, in starcraft you get zergrushed, in Battlefield you don’t win a single jet-fight because there is some freak on the server who plays jet 24/7… It happens in every game that has atleast a bit of depth. So please just deal with it. It doesn’t make sense to dumb everything down just to maybe make some casual players a bit more happy. There has to be some motivation for getting better at multiplayer-games… Without any motivation to play the game… Why play it? You can rather play singleplayer games then… These games (ideally) have some story atleast.
I would like to know if developers are interested in making matchmaking system? If yes, then all problems with good players destroying bad players would be over. If not, then you cant do anything about it, in every game there always will be way better players than beginners. and beginners when playing against way better players will always be raped. And it doesn’t matter if game is noob friendly or not.
But will good players on purpose join server full of bad players? Personally i have never joined hldm server to rape lower skilled player, and my clan mates didn’t too, we always are trying to find players who knows what they are doing. And majority players feels the same. like 95% of AG players don’t even play hl.
In conclusion i don’t think that skill difference in pub servers is big problem.