What's the point of this remake (BM, BMDM)?

Black Mesa Archive The Cafeteria
#1

Hi,

in the past days, some people came to me in order to have my opinion about this game* (and especially BMDM). This caught my attention, and I have to admit that I don’t understand the motivations of its developers. What’s the point to rebuild a 16 years old game in a 10 years old one? If the goal was to revive the unique spirit of half-life (deathmatch) and its unique gameplay, I think that what you guys are doing is not on a good road, but will rather lead to failure in a sense I’ll try to make clear in what follows.

First, half-life is a 16 years old game, mostly (if not totally) dead, with an already split community (people playing valve and people playing adrenaline gamer, both steam and won2). Being an original game and not just a(nother) copy, it inherits some form of authority you guys will have hard time dethroning. Surely, this previous virtue is not something one should focus on too much, there is room for improvement and continuation of half-life style. Yet, can BMDM unify half-life communities and bring to it new (non casual) ones? If yes, how? Can it do it without any big drawbacks on what the original game is? Isn’t source an already out dated engine to realize such a project? Let us recall what happened with quake 3 and quakelive (no change of engine). The game is now totally dead and is fictively alive thanks to some sponsors and marketing made by its developers.

Second, by looking at the team members of this project, the lack of good players is not left unnoticed. Where are the members who understand the game for what it really is, for its potential, and for what has to be improved? The little “history” of video gaming has shown that projects like that always led to a simplification, not to say a noobification (skillwise speaking), of games mechanics. You know, video games are like school systems. You don’t make a good game by decreasing the amount of skill and exigency it requires to be well played. On the contrary, a good game is a game that discriminates players with respect to their skill and investment, and that is not friendly to casual and unskilled players. What makes half-life (deathmatch) unique is both its long learning curve in order to be able to express yourself decently, and its aggressiveness (being anti-casual gamers). In this game, you can perfect and rape a supposedly good player in a 1o1 if you’re much better and aggressive enough. In this game, you have to time weapon and ammo, not armors. You can kill someone who is 100/100 with 1 HP thanks to head shot and the total unbalance of weapons, making hitscan aim (gluon, bow, gauss and especially wallgauss and nukes) a much more efficient tool to rape your opponent than projectiles. You have to develop a whole gameplay around spawn cycle (the latter being not so random at all), and can’t possibly be called a good player if you don’t know how to move at least decently.

Third, it looks like the game you guys released is still full of bugs, and lack most half-life features (wallgauss, etc etc). How is that a good strategy to release an unfinished game? You know, most people are trying a game when it is released and then forget it. Maybe you guys should consider being less hasty. Let me give you a criterion in this respect: take a look at this channel https://www.youtube.com/user/1212testmicro and these movies youtube.com/watch?v=3NXnGuS2Jvk .
Now, consider that the game shouldn’t be released until it becomes possible to redo all these things in a way that is more or less as hard as in the original game.

Regards.

  • because I’m more or less the authority of half-life deathmatch.
#2

I have some retorts! *

  1. The project started early on, when the engine was only a couple years old. It’s pushed on quite long, but it looks incredible nonetheless. Maybe it’s not up to 2015 standards, but it’s still a hell of a lot better than Half-Life 1, even Half-Life 2. Additionally, nostalgia. It’s a labor of love, and a hobby. It’s not to completely reinvigorate the Half-Life playstyle or whatever, as far as I can tell (though I’m no BM developer, they could feel differently). No need to read into it.

  2. Is your point that you shouldn’t use old engines simply because they’re old, and that one other game didn’t do too well? I disagree wholeheartedly. It’s mostly a matter of opinion, I suppose, but I think disregarding an engine capable enough for the goal on account of its age, disregarding results is a bit foolish.

  3. I actually have no idea what you’re talking about here. I don’t know what point you’re trying to convey, what’s supposed to support it, or anything, really.

  4. They didn’t publish an unfinished game and say it was finished. It’s incredibly clearly marked “EARLY ACCESS,” which is for roughly beta-releases for developers to get more active, interactive feedback from the community and make changes and modifications before finishing. If you don’t want it, wait for it to be finished and come back then. No one but yourself made you buy it at this point in time.

* Because I don’t think very highly of you after your finishing line, the arrogance and ignorance of which about convinced me you’re just fucking about and just looking for an argument.

#3

I didn’t realise this game had a rape feature…

and so humble

#4

Well, firstly, this is using a much more recent version of the source engine so saying they’re rebuilding it in a 10 year-old game is a misnomer.

Secondly, the game was pretty blatantly put out in Steam’s Early Access. There’s a big giant warning about how the game isn’t finished yet right above the “buy” button on Steam.

#5

Alright for your answer(s) concerning my last remark: then don’t consider it as a criticism of BM team to be hasty, but more as something to aim at in terms of what should be possible to do in BMDM.

#6

A big part of the rationale for early access MP was so that we could get feedback from very passionate, skilled members of the MP community such as yourself and others who have been commenting on these forums.

As a result, we already have a pretty big list of mechanics and features and changes to work into the next update for MP, in order to continue to improve the gameplay and make a really fun, challenging experience. That’s our overall goal.

#7

It’s not Half-Life.
It’s Black Mesa.
It’s a different beast, though similar.
Some things will stay the same, some things will change, and some will be gone.
It’s up to developers.

#8

Biggy is a real legend (a freak) of HL1DM… Insanely skilled player. But from what I’ve heard he is also a cheater. He and Julien developed and shared a cheat hack called OpenGF32 a while back. They tried to destroy HLAG community (or maybe they tried to make the community more aware to take care and ban more cheaters?). Even if he might be skilled and what not. I’m not sure if we can trust him.
I understand the sense behind this project and I love that you guys are working on this. HL1 is just way too old and I am waiting for the day when I can fully enjoy BMDM to it’s full potential. Hopefully this day will come. Please don’t stop working hard on BMDM. If you can get the gameplay close to HL1 or even AG, this game will be a blast.

#9

Early Access states it all. Post your criticisms in an organized & respectable manner and the devs will do their best to address the communities desires… Last I checked, that is how Early Access works. It won’t be perfect from the FIRST release. Have a slice of humble pie…

#10

You’d think someone with the prestige of biggy would know what early access is.

#11

It’s pleasant to know the development team is taking into account the feedback from passionate and skilled players of the multiplayer community. It’s also assuring to know they are listing fundamentally important fixes that will make BM :smiley: M more like the original HLDM. Over the years, many players from around the world have trained extensively to develop various skills and to improve their gameplay for competitive purposes. The noobification of BM :smiley: M would be a rip off and slap in the face to many of the players who have invested years of training when they realize their skills are void and useless in a game that claims to be an accurate representation and remake HLDM. It’s important to note that HLDM/AG has a very high learning curve and skill bracket that sets apart the beginners from the experts. In theory, a HLDM player should be able to join a BM :smiley: M server and perform at or around the same skill level. It’s critical that BM :smiley: M stays true to the mechanics that players have grown accustomed to so their hard earned skills are put to use and don’t go to waste. This will promote an adaptable and seamless transition for community members of all skill levels.

Here is some insight and perspective to some of the mechanics of HLDM/AG.

Bunny Hop: This allows players to move around maps with a sense of “speed and control.” Bunny hop is a continuous series of timed jumps (by choice of holding or pressing the jump key) which enables players to quickly and efficiently pick up and control entities such as weapons, ammo, health, etc… which is much faster than running. Also, players can perform trick jumps demonstrating their level of skill which promotes creativity and expression in the game.

Circle Jump: This allows players to move their mouse in a circular motion which allows them to jump slightly farther distances and gain acceleration before bunny hopping.

Long Jump: This allows players to jump higher and farther distances, enabling them to jump on top of elevated surfaces to gain the advantage of high ground faster. This can greatly assist a player in regaining and maintaining map control.

Wall Strafe: This allows players to gain extra speed by running against a wall by pressing (forward/backward + strafe left/right.) This technique is known to be particularly useful on the map crossfire to successfully clear the red guard rails and make the jump to the gauss platform.

Gauss Jump: This allows players to jump great distances by charging the gauss and shooting the ground or a wall to launch them in any desired direction or location. This technique is also used to gain significant speed prior to bunny hopping.

Slope Jump: This allows players to move up ramps and slopes without losing much speed while bunny hopping before hitting the peak by pressing duck.

Wall Gauss: This allows players to shoot through walls by using the gauss secondary fire. The damage and radius of the wall gauss depends upon the thickness of a wall and how much it is charged prior to shooting. It is frequently used to kill enemies and can be used detonate mines behind a walls.

Quick Bow: This allows players to zoom and shoot the crossbow simultaneously. It allows players to react and deal damage much faster especially at close range.

Here’s a video of my friend biggy demonstrating some very famous tricks on the map boot_camp.
youtube.com/watch?v=N2FZuzaTaBI

#12

You don’t seem to understand the potential of the project. This game is not going to be a source copy of hl1, but it’s our chance to make this game better than original. Most of the players who care about mp and post on this forums are competitive hl1 players, so the devs will probably listen to us.
Reworking of the game is an opportunity to change some thing which will probably never be changed in the original.
For example - lj. Yes, it is an important part of gameplay, but is that endless lj spam “skill-based”? It isn’t, but if we add energy management - it will be. Moreover, is bugged lj animation really necessary? It’s not, and both of these things are probably the most “unskilled” part of the gameplay. However, it wasnt fixed, but there are a lot of players who abuse it. And now we can finally get rid of it.
The other problems are shotgun (it’s doesn’t seem to be that random anymore, but the reloading should be changed) and xbow - fast zoom is rather bad than good, it can be replaced by 357 in close combat, which finally became useful.
Gluon is either overpowered or useless in hl1. If we remove its recoil and probably splash, it will become decent and skilled weapon at last.

Ofcourse, this will change the game, but it won’t make it worse. This situation is similar to cs - it was reworked and it became even more popular. Csgo shows that there is a potential to remake an old game, if it’s done right. We just should do the same things - fix some flaws, make interfaces and menus (not the gameplay itself) more noob-friendly and add matchmakin/ranking system - atleast 3 or 4 tiers.

#13

In my opinion BMDev should own special competitive match-making servers with server settings or game mechanics close to that of Adrenaline Gamer, completely optional to choose by the player. (Easier said than done ey?)

Despite the fact that I didn’t play Adrenaline Gamer, I did play Adrenaline Gamer 2 (Destroyed mod) a lot and it showed that Source can get in touch with the game mechanics Adrenaline Gamer had.

a separation between stock server settings and competitive server settings is what will most likely keep the community happy of the game and will give them the will to move on and learn more.

Keep the competitive community on your mind.

#14

It’s no need to say that I agree with most of Nightmare’s remarks. Still, I do believe that there is room for improvement. For example, it might be interesting to suppress all form of hit recoil and to reduce the spread of all weapons (in particular, to make the one of shotgun much less random). This would make the game even more aggressive, and would decrease the luck factor and ping advantage coming for example from who hits first. As a compensation of such novelties, it might be necessary to reduce the damage made by weapons whose recoil had been decreased or even suppressed (say, mp5 and shotgun).

You seem to believe that it is actually harder to hit a guy long jumping than a guy dodging on the ground. This is a big misconception usually made by low level people who can’t aim decently a guy free falling (one of the most easy form of pure aim by the way). It is moreover clear that you don’t understand that ground motion is isotropic: all directions of motion of your character are equivalents and you have eight of them (any combination of forward, strafe, and backward keys). This can be (and actually is) exploited when one is long jumping, allowing to move your character from one side to another without having to aim at the place you land (that is, it allows you to do a lateral long jump). This technique is actually extensively used on stalkyard for example, or on any place where it is needed to “decal” quickly without any noise (thanks to silent long jump, one of the key feature of long jump too).
Now, you claim that quickbow is a bad thing that should be removed. Let me claim on the contrary, that the existence of quickbow allows to do some fast paced hits while one keeps moving on a map (say, following some roaming route) without having to fight “for real”. This certainly requires some little amount of skill you don’t have. Also, a regular bow hit one-shots a 100/0 guy (actually, a 90/15 one too) and is equivalent to three regular hit of 357 (that is, to a 357 headshot hit). Are you militating for a decrease in time required to kill a guy, thus reducing the aggressive factor (that is, its spirit) of half-life?

Concerning gluon, are the frags exposed in this demo unskilled? youtube.com/watch?v=BzvfOlS_sI4

PS: your subjectivism is typical from unskilled low tier people. Differences can be and are ordered with respect to skill, creativity, expressiveness, freedom, … The questions are actually quite simple: do the developers want to make of BMDM a fast paced game, skilled one, allowing creative moves and frags, or do they want to make it a “different game in a different spirit than half-life made for noobs and more nboobfriendly”? This is precisely why I made this thread, in order to clarify the motivations and intentions of this remake Point is, it seems that they really do want to make of BMDM a continutation of what half-life is as a skilled and fast paced game, and I’m not doubting of their good faith. In this respect, it is more than clear that they shouldn’t listen to people like you.

#15

Why can it not be “a different game in a different spirit than half-life”? AND a fast paced game, skilled one, allowing creative moves and frags?
You know, without that noob bit.

#16

Its probably harder to hit a player who can dodge, but there aren’t many players even in ag who can dodge really good. However, even very low level players in hl can lj. So, yes, it’s harder to hit mediocre player if he has lj. Not just because of lj itself, but because of bugged animation too. Even more, a noob who can nothing but press two buttons simultaneously becomes as hard to hit as an ordinary ag player (because most of them do the same and theres almost no way to improve this). This is similar to sprint button compared to bhop - a learning “stair” instead learning curve.
Adding energy system will not change it that much, but it will add one more thing to master - energy management is obviously more hard/“skilled” than spam.

There is nothing that can prevent you from doing that, you would just need to zoom a bit earlier, instead of using simple one button script. But it will prevent people from “spamming” xbow without even trying to aim while continuously jumping with lj.
Instead of this, people will have to get 357, which is more powerful now (I dont remember exact damage, but it takes 2 hits to kill 100/0)

I don’t think gluon is unskilled. But the community thinks it’s imbalanced and need to be fixed. So, currently in hlag it’s either almost useless (hlccl, or even disabled on some servers) or overpowered (100%). What I want is to remove recoil (and you seem to agree with that) and splash. First thing will allow more skilled player kill a gluon player even with mp5 because of no continuous screen shake, the second will force players to aim accurately.

#17

I would like to point out the vision of BM :smiley: M and why it’s not intended to be a different game in a different spirit other than Half-Life.

Black Mesa: Deathmatch
The adrenaline pumping, bullet dodging, rockets-flying, big-red-button riddled deathmatch is back in classic Half-Life style, featuring graphically enhanced multiplayer maps and the full lineup of weapons. You’ll find yourself having more fun blowing away your friends than, well, anything.

Overview
Black Mesa Deathmatch is speculated to be similar to HL :smiley: eathmatch. Players will compete with each other online, attempting to do 100 points of damage to their foes with various weapons while remaining above 0 health themselves. However, Deathmatch may not ship with the initial BM release, as development is being focused on completing the Single Player campaign.

Please note when the developers said it’s back in “classic Half-Life style”, the vision of this project is explicitly defined.

https://wiki.blackmesasource.com/Category :smiley: eathmatch

#18

The thing is, that BMDM is somehow a fast paced game and somehow not. Dev’s should proWith Gauss you can now jump even higher with less recharge than in hl1. Longjumping is still a good method of moving around the map in a fast way as long as it happens in one floor. But longjumping doesnt allow you anymore to jump on crates or higher platforms you couldnt reach with strafejumping only. It also doesnt make you become a harder target. As biggy already stated - Good strafing makes calculating harder for your enemy where you will be in the next few milliseconds. Anyhow, gauss jumping and having the longjump normally should provide mapcontrol. Let me explain to you why it doesnt:

Let’s look, for example, on the current status of gasworks. There is not really a need of grabbing a Longjump because you dont need to get around fast the map anyways due to the fact that items are spawning every 15 seconds and you literally just have to wait for them to spawn again. However, the H.E.V. chargers are all way too powerful. It takes you less than 3 seconds to get a charge of 76 armor. Just wait 15 seconds and you are 100/100. This all makes it pointless to even talk about “mapcontrol” There is nothing to control - you can get everything you want at any time. For example: You dont have to time the gauss at gasworks anymore, because here is what you do: You pick up the gauss from the centre of mainyard including 2 packs of ammo. After that you make one simple gaussjump to the catwalk above you to get egon + 2 more ammopacks. Within 5 seconds you got a gauss with 100 ammo.

For those who doesnt know the spawning time of HLDM:

Longjump, Health/HE.V. chargers, Health Packs, HEV packs: 30 seconds
Weapons, Ammunition: 20 seconds

#19

@N1ghtM@re

I just wanted to point out that those two options can coexist.
And the noob bit was unnecessary.

#20

There is no way i cant agree with “crowbar” , “biggy” ,“nightmare” and “fury” believe me just listen to US and you will have the competitive Half-Life from 2004,but with HD graphics.Please do not make it just run/shoot like call of duty…
We need movement[bhop(without bhop cap),long jumping,strafes] and crossbow should be instant…really its more better like that

Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.