What's the point of this remake (BM, BMDM)?

[biggy]

@JeffMOD

@biggy
I’d like to use an example from GO. The number of pieces you have in GO is inversely proportional to your skill - if you’re a pro at the game, you start with much fewer pieces than a first-time player. Obviously, this isn’t sustainable for a DM game, but you should really be asking yourself - you’re skilled. Why do you need to have more tools than unskilled players, when the tools you both share, you’re better with?

Because I trained hard for it and invested my time to develop these skills, whereas you never did. Video games are no different than real life. You can’t ask people to recruit you for an interesting job or a well paid one if you didn’t develop the skills needed to hold such positions. The problem is that you think that everyone is playing video games for fun: there’s more to video games than fun. Like sports, (or any job) one can do an activity for performances, intellectual pursuit, or for the very sake of doing the activity for what it is (without being obsessed or even caring about the fun it might gives you). Do you think that it is fun to train hard? It’s not. Do you think that it’s fun to “rape” a casual player? It’s not either, but it’s a nice challenge trying to score as much as you can. I’ve personally never played video games for fun itself, but for skill and the freedom it gives me. Yes, skill gives freedom, allowing the skilled player to express its creativity and taking new paths an unskilled one wouldn’t be able to even know of their very existence. Moreover, in a skilled game, there exists some intuitive notion of an ideal player, giving a goal to aim at. Skill allows to reach such ideals, and the latter are beautiful. Fun, on the contrary, is ugly.

Now, it is easy to satisfy people who wants to play video games for the above ugliness: just do what quakelive did with a skill quantifier and a restrictive access to servers. What’s the problem here?

[MichaelTannock]

In real life you develop skills to gain an advantage over other potential recruits, because you want the job.
In games you develop skills to gain an advantage over other players, because why?

[JeffMOD]

@biggy

Because I trained hard for it and invested my time to develop these skills, whereas you never did.

Well, that’s kind of my point. You’ve spent more time developing your skills, so you’re better at the game than I am. I have no doubt that you could kick my ass.
So why do you need them to add new mechanics to make it more like AG? With your skills you can already dominate me and most of the rest of the playerbase without those mechanics, right? You don’t need Bhop or wallstrafing to beat me. So now it’s down to pure skill in playing the game, with no exploits to artificially boost them. If anything, it adds to the challenge in playing, because there aren’t those exploits to rely on - think of it as having the thrill of a new challenge the likes of which you haven’t had in years.

[_WC_Stabsley]

You make me really, really sad. How do you not get that the overwhelming majority of players are just looking to have some fun? If you want to turn games into some sort of chore, you do that, but don’t force the rest of us to play in your sad, depressing sandbox with you. It’s a game, lighten up dude.

[xalener]

Biggy, I’m starting to think that skill in twitch arena shooters is the only skill you’ve developed. No one with any power is going to agree with your (excessively) extreme point of view. Not a damn soul.

Personally, I think you feel too strongly about this.

Fun is ugly? Jesus christ, go wallstrafe to a shrink’s office.

[TextFAMGUY1]

Enough of this. I’m not interested in this high level discussion. Constantly harping on about what the “spirit of Half-Life” and what it means to have skill is a pointless discussion here. It’s pretty much the only topic in this entire MP discussion which is purely subjective. The “spirit of Half-Life” and HLDM means totally different things to different people, and there’s no objective definition for it. In my opinion, our game’s MP preserves the spirit of Half-Life’s multiplayer, while revitalising and modernising it. You cannot convince me that this opinion is wrong, because it’s purely an opinion, even if it’s totally at odds with what you guys think. And I know that it is, and that you competitive guys vehemently disagree with me. And that’s cool. We like that.

But here’s the thing - the things we care about in this game, with regards to gameplay mechanics, really boil down to 2 very basic points. 1) Does it add depth to the gameplay? 2) Is it fun for players? That’s literally all you need to answer to convince me that a change is good or not. I don’t care about what you guys think of the overall competitive landscape, or how good your understanding of the game is. Put those 2 points across, convince me, and I will look into adding it in. We care about things from a practical, not an ideological perspective.

Here’s an example. Bunny hopping. Does it add depth to the gameplay? Yes. A fair bit, from everything I’ve heard, so much so that competitive players think it’s a core part of the gameplay. Is it fun for players? Well…that’s a tougher one. A very small percentage of the community will care about or attempt to master it, because it’s a difficult skill. They will use it to destroy those who don’t (the vast majority). Not particularly fun, but still worth considering. We put it on the list.

Compare that, to Tau Wallshotting, for example. Adds depth to the gameplay? Absolutely. Unquestionably. Is it fun for players? Well, despite the nuances to it, at its surface, it is a simple mechanic. You can shoot through walls. It can be used in a variety of circumstances that most, if not all players, will find themselves in. It can create awesome moments where you get a fantastic shot on someone through a wall / thin cover, no matter what your skill level. Skilled players and newer players alike can take advantage of it and enjoy it.

So, we know which out of those two mechanics goes up on the priorities list, above the other. It’s really as simple and practical as that. This is how you should approach issues when talking to us. With a practical eye. Enough with all this higher ideological nonsense. Let’s keep it simple, logical, and pleasant.

[xalener]

It doesn’t matter if we tell him that his opinion is subjective, he won’t believe us. It wouldn’t have mattered if you were the damn project leader or even a veteran Valve employee whose fuck-ups directly resulted in these old exploits. He’s really good at a 17 year old game, therefore he knows better than you.

That’s about the gist I’m getting, and I think nothing short of a life changing epiphany, like an honest to god near death situation, is gonna show him how warped his POV is.

[biggy]

@xalener: why are you implying I’m crazy, or that I only have video games in my life? The views I hold above are consistent with the ones I have in life, and they allowed me to become a mathematical physicist* working on interesting stuff as a living. Thanks to care about my sanity.

@TextFAMGUY1: you eventually revealed your intentions (or the ones of BM devs) after 4 pages. Congratulation, it is now clear that you don’t want to make BMDM a skilled game, and it is therefore no need for me to argue any longer.

PS: if you believe that the questions you ask are not led by any ideology you’re not even aware of, it’s sad. This is what disappoints me. You guys think that there’s only one way playing video games, and that there’s nothing more meaningful or absolute to find there. That’s just plain false, but its useless arguing in any case, because you eventually chose a side.

• and no, this is not at all related to half-life, freeman character or whatever.

[BIAPOS]

@JeffMOD

Obviously you haven’t experienced this in over a decade, but it’s not fun to join a server and not be able to play because every time you spawn you die instantly.
Answer me this: How does one get more skilled at a game when they have no opportunity to play and learn it? If you, as the the popular term among pro players seems to be, “get raped” when you play, you’re not enjoying yourself, and you’re more likely to quit.
People who quit, don’t get better. It’s not noobification of the game, it’s making it more accessible - and, unlike most modern games, BMDM is doing it without being hand-holdy about it; If you lack skill, you’re still going to die a lot - but not so much that you feel like you can never win no matter how hard you try.

You say skill means nothing if it’s ‘pointless’ to get skilled. I say skill means nothing if you’re not given an opportunity to gain any.

You can start by reading the whole thread instead of some bits, and more specifically:

@biggy

If what you guys’ fear is to get raped by experienced players, then it’s a false problem (also because there are really few of them). There are ways to avoid that, for example one could

1. built a skill quantifier as quakelive has, and make an option (that could be turned on/off) on servers to restrict the access to some skill range,

2. train hard in order to compete and have even more satisfaction playing the game,

3. create its own mode if its easy to do and allowed.

You seem to be under the impression losing does not help you improve. Allow me to share my story: I started off as a newbie player just like everyone else, getting stomped by good players, sometimes even without scoring a single frag. This however showed me that I am far from becoming the player I wanted which in return forced me to think about new ways to improve myself, to find new routes, to reevaluate the way I react to certain situations,ect… all of which gradually made me a player who managed to foil more and more often his opponents plan to dominate him and express their skill while doing the same himself. The beauty I found in the performance of skilled players was always what motivated me to try and become one myself, or even surpass them, even if that meant I had to suffer losing so badly in those 1v1s. It was not fun, but with time I started learning what works better and what is bad, and I understood better and better what I have to do to achieve my goal and that in order to truly become good it is necessary to suffer, fail and work hard. After all this failing, the understanding , skill and mentality that I have now allow me to enter a server in HLDM full of people like you - guys who never invested in becoming good and chose fun instead of skill, guys who I was once like - and make everyone quit.

In the end, is it the player who is too strong for you that you do not improve? or perhaps it is your lack of will to suffer and work hard to become the ideal player with beautiful aim, movement and gameplay? I’ll let you conclude.

@JeffMOD

Well, that’s kind of my point. You’ve spent more time developing your skills, so you’re better at the game than I am. I have no doubt that you could kick my ass.So why do you need them to add new mechanics to make it more like AG? With your skills you can already dominate me and most of the rest of the playerbase without those mechanics, right? You don’t need Bhop or wallstrafing to beat me. So now it’s down to pure skill in playing the game, with no exploits to artificially boost them. If anything, it adds to the challenge in playing, because there aren’t those exploits to rely on - think of it as having the thrill of a new challenge the likes of which you haven’t had in years.

We don’t need or care about challenge, please re-read.

[Juniez]

fuckin lol. no wonder the original hldm community is dead

[Rezaltas]

@biggy

• because I’m more or less the authority of half-life deathmatch.

[TextFAMGUY1]

I’m closing this thread now, because it’s been nothing more than a shit slinging whine fest from the outset.

Competitive players are welcomed and encouraged to voice their opinions on what can be done to add depth to the game and make it more fun. If they do so in a civil and reasonable manner. That has not been done here. There have been plenty of other competitive players voicing concerns in reasonable and civil ways elsewhere, and we are certainly listening and looking to further improve the game in whatever way we can, for all skill levels.

I hope you will eventually realise that this incredibly adversarial tone you guys have adopted is detrimental to your cause. Threads and posts like these are what give the competitive community a bad name. This is the exact reason I was hesitant to engage with you guys in the first place, and you proved me right. It’s a game, guys. If these kinds of posts continue to be repeated in other threads, I will be handing out permabans.