That was what I meant to do, just mistyped it. Corrected now. I’ll probably do all that tomorrow when I get the chance. There’s still a fair amount of stuff to clear up on the maps before that, though.
Exactly
I would just like to say that I’m still strongly opposed to separating the priming and the launch for reasons already stated numerous times, in particular that it’s illogical and any journey you make after priming the rocket is redundant (excluding the B-line you make to the control room in regular Black Mesa). I do hope you’ll reconsider the layout and instead place your maps in a way that doesn’t skew the launch sequence.
I honestly don’t see much of an issue with it. If you take a moment to look at the pics I posted of the original On A Rail you will see that you’re seeing parts of the rocket throughout the entire chapter before actually getting to the launch with lots of other maps in between. You start by seeing the bottom of the rocket at the very beginning and eventually make it up to the mid section of the rocket and then finally get to the top outside even later. There is no priming at all that is only something Black Mesa added. Following this trend by having you prime the rocket and then travel for awhile really won’t be much different.
Seriously? It’s one thing to talk philosophy about game design and how you don’t like the OaR layout but it’s another to propose a major change w/o providing any solutions. For the purposes of argument, I SERIOUSLY hope you actually played through BOTH BMS OaR and HL OaR recently and with that being said, what are you going to do about the theme duplication that will be created using your layout?
Office complex -> Materials transport -> Office complex -> Materials transport.
This is the FUNDAMENTAL issue at hand that you’ve failed to address. My proposal (essentially the same as Valve’s) eliminates this problem entirely and stays faithful to OaR HL. It allows you to see the rocket at 2 points, once mid-chapter during priming and once end-chapter during launch, which makes perfect sense and orients players to their goal at different points. You’re underground during priming so you have to take extra time to make it up to the surface for launch. I’d argue that this proposal is realistically the best you could do to not fundamentally screw up the layout of this chapter and works w/in the CONSTRAINTS set forth by BMS. If you have any better ideas that would prevent the nasty redundant theme problem and does not fundamentally alter OaR (which defeats the purpose of the remake), then now’s the time to say it.
I’m not going to release a video or do a long post tonight primarily because I want the first tiny little “media” release to be of high quality. So, I’ll hold off for tomorrow. I can definitely do it tomorrow though. The A section is about 2/3 complete in terms of basic layout/detailing, and the B1 section is just over 1/2 done. This potentially means I could have C2A2B1 completed within a week or so!
My new policy WILL be, as suggested, to test more early in the development cycle and on a per-map, rather than entire mod basis. This means testing could begin as early as next week. I haven’t decided precisely how to do the testing yet. I was a bit tentative with my testing for ST Uncut because it was the first thing I released, and I was aiming for a high quality testing release so that people weren’t put off by the quality, even if they were testing. But, now everyone knows what I can and can’t do, I feel it’s probably safer (and given the complex nature of OaR) to test earlier on this time. In the interest of fairness I’ll probably just allow anyone to test similar to how I did for ST Uncut, but it will be important to bear in mind that this will be a MUCH earlier version than ST’s first tests were.
This brings me to a design…issue I guess? While the rest of the design for C2A2B1 has gone swimmingly well (and I mean REALLY well, I’m very happy with how I’ve adapted the original’s layout), I’ve run into a snag as to where to place the crane control room. HL1’s placement was pretty bad BOTH from a design and gameplay perspective. It was placed where you had to go halfway around the map to even get to the crane’s controls, a totally dumb design flaw that would never happen in reality. It was also in a location where you could barely see the crane anyway, making it difficult and awkward to operate. While I’ve connected my B1 map together nicely so the former isn’t an issue anymore (see my current design schematic for more info), it’s still tricky to figure out where to place the crane controls and how.
In the interests of promoting greater transparency (without releasing the video, which will actually be lit as well), I’ll post a design schematic showcasing my current progress. I’ll be posting these a lot throughout the coming weeks.
Current design for C2A2B1. The rooms you see across the center of the C2A2A section connect the left side of the loop (from top-down schematic perspective) to the right AND to the top, which contains the crane. This allows the player to navigate to any portion of the loop (especially the crane) from any other portion of the loop.
One view of the two crane control locations I’m considering.
Alternate view of the potential crane control locations. I’m currently leaning towards the one on the left with the circular roof, but if I use the one on the right it’ll be IN PLACE of the grey slab atop the yellowish pillar.
Wherever you feel it fits best honestly. By controls do you mean the player will have to actually control the crane ala the HL2 crane where you moved the car?
I guess we just disagree on this fundamental “issue”. Splitting up offices and material transports doesn’t bother me in the slightest. To me it’s no different than the offices that dot the facility elsewhere; Office Complex, Surface Tension, Questionable Ethics all have offices. Same can be said with storage areas, parking areas, roads, canals, ventilation, waste treatment, etc. Having 2 offices in different areas of the rail system isn’t a terrible thing. And personally I don’t mind them being out of their original order to fit Black Mesa’s interpretation. Black Mesa isn’t Half-Life, it’s a remake, it doesn’t have to be exactly the same as it was before, because if it was, we’d just have Half-Life Source again.
The main issue I have with it is that I just can’t see it making any sense to prime a rocket for launch, then run off somewhere for the next half hour before returning to the same location to finish launching it. It ruins the sense of urgency if half the chapter becomes ‘travel for the sake of travel’. I can’t understand where you are coming from, but don’t agree with your perspective.
Aren’t you making completely opposite points in these two posts? You say it’s fine how throughout the game we have to take meandering routes interrupted by major distractions and obstacles to our goals… then you say the same concept is the “main issue” with the proposed OaR design.
I agreed with the first point, and it still applies:
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You’ve already made it to the surface in We’ve Got Hostiles, but are immediately chased back underground, with the ceiling collapsing and sealing you in, followed by a series of those major distractions before you finally make it back up.
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At the beginning of Forget About Freeman, you are face to face with a door leading to Lambda. The entire chapter is you taking the long way around to actually get inside.
So if you get to prime the rocket only to be faced with an obstacle like rubble blocking a tunnel and forced to run around in circles before actually launching it, I don’t see how that would deviate from the spirit of HL/BM.
Re testing: At this stage, I really don’t care much about the quality, textures, etc. on this map. I’m just gonna be looking at design issues and ways to improve gameplay like ammo/health placements, potential places for new scripts etc.
Re crane room: It’s hard to judge where to put it based on these images…seems like there’s more space above the houndeyes but I’d really have to see the video to make a concrete suggestion. Some design principles I’d recommend you’d follow here irregardless of choice:
-placing the crane control room on the SECOND floor similar to HL. It makes sense to have the area elevated so the operator has a perfect view of what the crane is doing
-make the loop a MANDATORY element for this section so the player doesn’t feel like he’s suckered into it. I like the positioning of the crane room entrance in HL in the sense that it at least made the double loop functional, despite the rediculous distance. It would be ideal if you could make either the entrance or crane operation somehow be dependent on accessing the loop (e.g. entrance requires loop traversal, need to flip a power switch w/in the loop to activate the crane)
-remember that the crane does NOT have to a complicated puzzle element as that was covered in BMS’ A
I have to move tonight and tomorrow but it looks like you’re getting to the office complex now. I’ll post up some suggestions later if I have time (prob tomorrow).
In terms of chronology there is no such thing as a “Black Mesa’s interpretation.” The appearance of features here is EXACTLY the same as it was in HL…it’s just stuff got truncated along the way. Based on this, it makes sense that the OaR dev wanted the sections to appear in chronological order, should he have made them, as this is consistent w/EVERY other section in the rest of BMS.
I gotta agree with you. There is absolutely no reason, why you should have to move so much after priming the rocket. The only way to make this work in a logical way, is when the normal path after priming the rocket is blocked/damaged. Even then it would not explain, why the HECU doesn’t just disable the rocket, while you are off enjoying the countryside elsewhere.
I agree, that the rocket is a recurring theme in Half-Life, which could be easily done, by showing it in the distance of some outdoor area. But as long, as there is no specific reason to leave the rocket after priming, the entire traveling afterwards will become redundant.
Actually the OaR dev wanted to cut OaR down, and he did, at this point we’re adding things back that wasn’t originally intended to be in. Black Mesa’s interperatation is that you reach the rocket, then you launch the rocket. Not reach the rocket, leave the rocket, reach the rocket again, launch the rocket. Plus if the maps don’t account for this redundancy, we might even have a scenario where we prime the rocket and leave, only to magically find it 800 meters away from where we we primed it.
This reminded me of another thing. In Half-Life, whether the rocket you saw was the same one or 3 different ones, we never interacted with them until Launch, therefor the Military had no idea of our goal and was unable to prevent it beforehand. In BMS we prime the rocket for launch the first time we see it, so logically this should send red flags to the military command, at which point they should do something to prevent you from launching it. If we leave the rocket, it raises the question of Why the military just sat around waiting for you to press the button, instead of disabling the rocket and / or control room?
I personally like the idea of it sitting over the tracks. Seems like it’d provide the best view, and would be easy for the operator to load the train with since he’d be looking right down at it. Also you could have the pathway to the loading area blocked by a door, locked from inside. This would be logical as it would allow access to the room from the loading bay, any gameplay wise allow the player to return to the tram if he parked it there. Otherwise, the room is accessed from another point, possibly another room / hallway or a vent.
The fuck?
OP making OaR?
Sold.
He’s remaking the sections\ elements that the BM devs cut out of their version of On a Rail just like he did for his earlier project.
(Except unlike with Surface Tension, the devs intentionally butchered the chapter and turned it into the weakest one for Black Mesa)
It’s amazing how fast he can get things done too (with quality).
You’d think I’d know by now what the brit kunt is doing in his spare time, no?
At text: maybe you should chime in on what you’re gonna do regarding map layout. I’m getting kinda tired discussing what should be obvious.
I would if I myself knew what I was going to do, but I haven’t planned that far ahead yet - primarily because it doesn’t affect the work I’m doing on A1 in the slightest, and progress on A1 is going excellently. My current inkling is that I’m not terribly bothered about the rocket launch being placed a while after the rocket priming. I think the argument that “any journeying after the rocket priming is pointless” is an untenable position primarily because you’re taking a meta-perspective on an issue which is present throughout the entirety of the game.
As Targ said, pretty much the entirety of Blast Pit and Power Up are just that - distractions from your main goal to reach the surface, which you’d already fulfilled on WGH. But you don’t take a meta perspective on that, you just enjoy the journey. I’d estimate that about half of Black Mesa involves lots of pointless journeying around obstacles anyway, so it’s hardly a big deal in that regard. If you take a look at the rocket on C2A2C, you’ll see there’s a tunnel which comes out right next to the rocket (the one you come out of in C2A2C comes out near a road). On my maps I could have that tunnel present on B2 which has a big illuminated sign next to it reading “primary rocket access,” but it’s been blocked off by either a lot of collapsed debris or a military blockage. This would explain why it took so long to reach the rocket, and it hardly makes the journey “pointless” if there was no other way for Gordon to get there.
The biggest problem I have with slotting the maps in where they were in HL1, is indeed the argument that the HECU could have deactivated the rocket after Gordon primed it, given the long time period that’s going to pass between priming and launch. The other objections don’t mean much to me, as they’re a bit of a double standard on an issue which is prevalent not just throughout Black Mesa, but most of the Half-Life series in general.
I suppose that “issue” can be explained away in a few ways. Firstly, Gordon killed all the HECU around the rocket, and the HECU aren’t the greatest geniuses in the world. It’s not unfeasible to say that they aren’t even aware that Gordon has primed the rocket, so they wouldn’t go looking to check it out. It’s also not unreasonable to say that Gordon’s killed all the HECU which were behind him, so they can’t actually make it back to the rocket as he’s heading towards the launch center - any HECU he encounters there may actually potentially be heading over to the rocket to de-prime it, this could be an interesting story element which I may be able to work in.
So, I’m leaning towards not doing anything to the level order. I do, after all, have to work within the constraints of what Black Mesa has put in place. Compromises have to be made, and this may be one of them.
I actually had a catastrophic crash today whilst editing A1 which corrupted the VMF file. Luckily I was able to save it by text editing the VMF file, but it was a close scare which would have lost me an awful lot of good progress. I’m on track to finishing this up nicely, but as for a video tonight I’m not sure. Tonight or tomorrow.
Will the layout make any sense at all? In Black Mesa the rocket priming is exactly where it should be; just below the launch station. Will you work to make it as consistent, or are you going to ignore the cohesion between maps that the BM devs achieved, especially here and in Questionable Ethics?
They managed to eliminate all the obvious inconsistencies present in the Half-Life levels, as far as I know; there are no longer levels colliding with the cliffside level in the Surface Tension level, for example, which was one of the most obvious errors in the original. Creating some more of these in this mod of a mod would be rather sad. Maybe this is me being crazy, but I’m pretty sure that, even if most people don’t consciously notice it, they will know something is odd when they travel miles and miles away from the rocket-priming and end up exactly in the same place.
By the way, I wonder if your previous uncut Surface Tension levels created inconsistencies, by the way. Do you know? Does anyone?
Technically you do achieve your goal of reaching the surface in WGH, it’s just the surface turns out to be a very bad place and there’s no sign of rescue. At the end of WGH, your goal becomes to reach the Lambda Complex using the rail system (which turns out to be collapsed not far down the line anyway, and you don’t find it again until you come across a turntable in Power Up).
If you do go the route of splitting up the priming and the launch, then perhaps you could add something in to keep from disrupting the suspension of disbelief too much? Maybe you could enter an old cold war era security station to activate an old emergency sector lockdown / turret security system, which would slow ground forces just enough for you to reach the control room and launch it before they could interfere further.
Additionally, try to make the maps double back at some point, so it doesn’t seem like you went off in one direction and somehow magically ended up back where you were. Doesn’t need to line up perfectly, but enough that you don’t see it and go “Hey wait, wasn’t the rocket just way over there?”.
On another note, you should really consider adding a couple wyes in your maps, it’s a nice detail that fits right in with the rail theme, especially with the rail system being so cramped and populated. You might also consider adding some more open tunnels like the one at the start of Blast Pit. It always seemed off to me that there was that one tunnel like that, and we never saw any others anywhere else in the rail system.
This question seems unnecessarily pointed to me, and a tad accusatory. Are you aware how extraordinarily difficult it is to do that in the first place? To make stuff like that 100% consistent, and non-overlapping?
Are you also aware that I’m building within and around the consistent, refined structure of Black Mesa’s OaR, so my chances of being able to slot my stuff perfectly within that are slim to none, anyway?
Are you also aware that I’m one man, and not an entire development team?
If it bothers you that much, don’t use OaR Uncut. I actually consider this an unreasonable request. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest, and I’d imagine the majority of people would happily take more content, even if it did create some layout inconsistencies. That, or you could mod my mod of a mod to fix those inconsistencies for me. I wouldn’t object to that. I will try my best to make sure there are no obvious overlaps or inconsistencies, but asking me to make it slot perfectly into OaR’s existing layout? Not going to happen.
This wasn’t so much of a problem with Surface Tension, primarily because Surface Tension’s layout isn’t so tight, nor was I editing within an extremely refined, cohesive structure - I was tacking stuff onto the end, so only needed to worry about internal consistency. ST Uncut doesn’t create any inconsistencies as far as I’m aware, off the top of my head. I worked hard to prevent C2A5G and C2A5H clashing with one another, but it’s possible that C2A5I and G might overlap. It should be fine everywhere else.