why do you think that’s evidence for god’s existance? watchmaker’s analogy?
Evidence that “information comes only from intelligent sources, not from chance acting over time”?
And your evidence that it’s the specific Abrahamic deity?
DNA proves the existence of god? The human ability to conceptualize and communicate a concept proves the existence of god?
Fuck it - just go whole-hog and say something like “A child’s laughter proves the existence of god” or ‘Flowers are pretty, ergo god exists - yeaaaaa!’ - and you might as well, because it’s the same argument.
I don’t have a problem with someone having a BELIEF in god, but Christian belief is a matter of faith. You can have faith or reason, but not both. If god could be proven, then there would be no Faith. If you had Reason, you wouldn’t need Faith. Clumsy attempts to present some kind of proof, evidence, or argument for god or Jesus, are made by those with no Faith.
BTW - you should be careful about regurgitating elements of Intelligent Design, people will think you’re retarded. - not directed at The_Assassin47 - just a general FYI.
Zen609, I think the thing that upsets me the most is from John 20.
After Jesus’ resurrection, one of his apostles, Thomas, refused to believe that he had been resurrected until he had evidence.
A week later, Jesus comes to Thomas’ house and says:
This is all I want…what Jesus gave Thomas: Evidence.
Seek it, then.
And not on forums.
I’ve sought it, I really have. For over two decades. I have come up empty-handed. There is not a single shred of evidence whatsoever. So, unless someone has something new for me to see…
And this is “Ask a Christian” so I’m wondering what Christians see that I don’t.
I understand. I would just say goto church. If you don’t like it, try a better church. You don’t have to be stuck at one lame-ass church cramming garbage into your ears. But if something interests you at one of them, then stay and try to learn something… that’s about it.
There’s a thousand different translations to the bible, and everyone has their own opinions… just as long as you’re honestly trying to figure it out, and you’re being a “good” person, you’ll be okay.
Except, THIS IS ‘ASK A CHRISTIAN’. Therefore, the whole point of this thread is to ask Christians questions. Or do I not understand the point?
You asked for evidence, and I was telling you how to find it. I’ve been a Christian for a while. You should actively seek evidence, with your whole self, which means finding a church that you personally will be comfortable at.
I’m sure this thread has served it’s purpose, but I hate these things that (imo) cram theology down peoples’ throats, and doesn’t help anyone.
Right - there is no evidence - there’s not even a good argument to support Christianity.
Some Christians have Faith. Faith is a lot like superstition or delusion - all 3 describe the act of holding a belief without reason or despite evidence or fact to the contrary. Faith is distinguished by the fact that the faithful know that their belief is unreasonable. One must make a ‘leap of Faith’ over reason in order to hold the beliefs of the Abrahamic God and the 3 Articles of Faith required of Christians.
It’s as simple as that. It’s not easy - I can’t do it - but it’s simple. I almost always disbelieve people that claim Christianity. I just assume that they’re full of shit. I know that this isn’t the case for all Christians, and that there are those who ARE real Christians and DO have Faith. But I think most are simply born into it - it’s cultural - they never have to make any leap of faith and in fact don’t even understand what faith is. And I think that for others, American Evangelicals specifically, Christianity is merely used as organizational rhetoric for a social organization of a certain type of social psychology - they’re members of a social group.
So, yeah, I basically think that there are real Christians, but most that claim Christianity are not - they’re merely delusional Authoritarians who use Christianity as an organizational frame, and you shouldn’t expect to have any real discussion with them as about 95% of that social psychology are incapable of logical reasoning in issues of the abstract. (I’m not thinking of anyone participating in this discussion, with the possible exception of Assassin - who seems like a Cult Leader’s wet dream)
As for those who are truly Faithful, I imagine the only real discussion of any importance at all is the leap of Faith, and there’s not really much to discuss there - you either find some kind of spiritual strength to make that leap or you don’t. You’re on your own.
Why is a church necessary? I’m talking independently verifiable evidence, the likes of which Jesus provided to Thomas. I’ve searched high and low, near and far, through over a thousand years of theology and millions of people.
And not a single shred of evidence to be found anywhere. “Church” is irrelevant. Belief is irrelevant. Faith is irrelevant. These should just be facts.
Facts I believe. Your “say so” (or any else’s “say so”) is insufficient. There is nothing I can learn in “Church” that I haven’t already learned.
There must be something else. Facts first, then belief.
As I said before “Ask A Christian” was a debate until assassin turned up and pretty much said “I am right about everything and not willing to debate this. If you ask me a valid question I will just say you are stupid and that god hates you” Teh End
Well, church is just a word used for basically what we’re doing now. And it wasn’t really me that said to do it, it was Christ himself that said we should help each other like this - although over the internet it’s not nearly as useful.
This is the same for any forum, not just spiritual. Like getting education over the internet, etc; it’s just not the same. I’m not your mother, telling you to get up and get ready for sunday school. I am saying that a real gathering of spiritually invested individuals is where you will find your answers.
Except that, once again, the pesky notion of facts being verifiable even if you don’t already believe.
Thomas got the evidence he required to believe and it didn’t require belief beforehand. I am not getting it even though I’m desperately looking.
As for this forum, you are in “Ask a Christian”. If you don’t believe this to be the right venue for this kind of thing, you can certainly go find other places. I’m interested in actual answers to questions.
If you don’t want to or can’t answer the questions being posed without a vague “look elsewhere”, then don’t trouble yourself to post in this thread again. This is “Ask a Christian”. And you’re essentially telling me to feck off.
That is an argument from ignorance. The ‘information’ of our universe is an organization of energy. To say we don’t know what first initiated the universe therefore it must be from an intelligent source is an unsupportable connection. The rules of our universe now say information is never destroyed, but your conjecture is that it was created. There is nothing to support that. You cannot go from ‘I don’t know’ to a conclusion. You DO NOT know that information only comes from intelligent sources. No one CAN make that claim.
A quick idea of how “information” can arise from “chaos”. You have a bag full of letters and you throw them on the floor. However, it’s not as chaotic as one might think. If you keep throwing the letters on the floor with nothing attracting the letters together, you’ll almost never form anything.
But then you have some chemical bonding going on which happens naturally. The letter Q, for example, naturally attracts the letter U. Vowels are naturally attracted to consonants. With all these rules of attraction, eventually, from throwing the bag of letters on the ground, you’ll form almost every word in the English language.
Especially if a word is “selected” by natural selection and gibberish words are eliminated. Soon, you’ll just have English words being thrown out all the time. Then these English words have natural attraction with other words. Adjectives are attracted to nouns. Nouns and verbs are attracted to each other. Nonsense sentences are eliminated and sentences that make sense are retained.
Now you’re throwing out paragraphs. And, soon, books. From “chaos” and “chemical attraction”.
There’s a great video that illustrates this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg
I love this video and I hope everyone that doesn’t understand the origins of life and “genetic information” watches it.
i told you about fact… oil coming from stone, uncorrupted blood, you can go and check any time but after you go there you will have another question and after than another and another and another and so and so on. and as Jesus said.
I missed these posts. Where are they? Can you link me to the them?
I will stop doubting and believe when I get actual evidence.
Oil comes from stone…wut?
Uncorrupted Blood…wut?
And the reason everyone has questions is because it is not explained properly. There is no proof. Explain to me without just saying “God did it and a book says so thus it is fact shut up if you disagree” then maybe I would accept your “evidence”. And as Jesus said what exactly?
What if tell you I have read the bible and that my opinion about it is that most of it is just nonsense, it is just another ancient book with only a few things in there that are worthwhile? What if what I conclude from the bible is that Christianity, as we see today, is not a all what Jesus had in mind? I believe that the main problem with Christianity is faith, because it is blind and that people to hide their bad attitudes behind it.
I think the only kinds of Christianity known to me that take into account of what Jesus taught instead of being “just another fan club” are irreligious Christianities (including Christian Atheism), saving a few Christians here and there (I said a few but personally I just know one) and a group of Spiritists that I know and are a lot better at Christianity than all Christians that I have heard of.
He is talking about Saint Gabriel miracles.