https://forums.blackmesasource.com/showthread.php?t=8706&page=6
#111
you can come and see it. (I didn’t believed when I heard about it first time.
I believe you’re referring to this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_%28Urgebadze%29
Now, how are these purported “miracles” evidence of a deity? Specifically, the Abrahamic deity known as “God” or “Allah” (among other names)?
And, before someone says “See? No matter what I do, it’s question after question after question after question.” or something similar, remember, this is “Ask a Christian” and…simply claiming something is evidence doesn’t make it evidence. I could say my computer keyboard is evidence that my cat dances the Mambo and sings the Star Spangled Banner. All four verses. In French.
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yes it’s him.
I am in dilema . I don’t know who to believe… from one side the guy who believes in somethings existence only after he squeezes it and from other side the man - monk,saint, his body isn’t rotting after death, his blood is uncorruptable and holy oil is coming of his gravestone… I really don’t know which one can be right. I’d better search in google for answer.
You’d better search in ass for head.
Religious miracles like this are fake. Not only has the blood in the vial in the photos not decomposing, it’s not coagulating either. I would bet if you smelled it, it would smell like moth balls.
You’re trying to support one superstitious belief with another superstitious belief.
Dude - I understand the reputation that your country has for it’s backwardness, but for fuck sake, it’s the 21st Century - you surely can’t be falling for this kind of medieval sham designed for illiterate, superstitious serfs.
If you need miracles as ‘proof’ of god, then you have no faith - and make no mistake: there IS a difference between Faith and common backward superstition.
But hey, believe what you want - what you may think in your head doesn’t bother me at all. But what you express in a public forum is fair game for criticism. So, if you wanna get all sanctimonious and self-righteous about how you know god exists because you’re too naive to recognize a carnival side show attraction when you see one, then don’t be surprised if people don’t find your beliefs credible.
prove me.
you know, i am happy that you exist. retards like you prove my superiority.
Actually, prove they’re real.
Oh my God!!! I cannot believe I’m actually reading this!
Ok, ok, oh superior human being, let’s assume your position of accepting those claims as true without having to prove it to be right is actually reasonable. There is some red liquid and they say this red liquid is St. Gabriel’s blood, so you believe it, why doubt it, right? Therefore St. Gabriel’s blood is incorruptible, which means everything he said and believed in life is true.
All right, what about this well known research of Ian Stevenson:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_research
Hey, no, it is not just one case or another, it is 2500 cases of children remembering their past lives! Reincarnation, then, is true, because, well, if you didn’t doubt someone who is not even a scientist and said St. Gabriel’s blood is that red liquid you actually saw, why would you doubt Ian Stevenson? He is psychiatrist! He talked to 2500 children, documented their stories, their lives, their names and addresses so that you can go to talk to those kids yourself and confirm their stories, and then you talk to the deceived’s families to see if the deceived people are actually those kids’ past lives.
I agree that a lot of those cases have a few mistakes, but all the 2500? Impossible.
So, measure the amount of proof that you have against 2500 proofs of reincarnation. Read the wikipedia article, you will see there are so many coincidences that they can’t just be coincidences. There is no way he could have invented this, otherwise someone else would have actually gone to investigate themselves and discovered his lies.
If you, on the other hand, say that there must be a flaw in this incredible research, then there is definitely a huge flaw on whatever claims that you can make that St. Gabriel’s blood is incorruptible or that there is some kind of miracle oil that flows from his grave, because those claims are much weaker.
I could present more “proofs” of “supernatural events” that contradict your beliefs and that are at least as believable as all that you have said or seen that is related to St. Gabriel.
Now, tell me if you can, since you are a superior form of life, how is that possible?
Just a note for anyone else: don’t answer this, please let Assassin answer this. I’m calling his bullshit.
I was just joking. (but he is still retard)
there are more unnatural things in humanity that can be considered as “againts” religion/christianity
btw. this fact proves more that soul exists than that christianity is wrong.
hey! I am not the one who needed the proof with “miracle”.I believe that the blood is realy uncorruptable. you doubt it?? prove me. even if st. Gabrien never existed there are lots of other reasons for me to be christian.
from wikipedia:
why this is true and the fact that one woman with THUMOR in head just painted cross on her forehead with the oil from st. Gabriels grave and asked god that operation went well and when the doctors began operation there was no thumor in head any more. and this is not in only 1 and 2 persons report.
It was Cthulhu. He wants people tumorless before he awakens to eat them.
Prove me wrong.
cthulhu is in ry’leh and sleeping. (I saw him) prove me wrong.
This is called argumentum ad ignorantiam.
If you think he is a retard, you were not really joking. He is not a retard, you are the one who did not understand his point.
No, it proves reincarnation, which proves Christianity wrong. There is no supernatural concept in Christianity which makes a memory of one person to go to another person when the first one dies.
Whoever does the claim must prove it. You said the blood is incorruptible, you have to prove that, that was the whole point of my post. If you want to believe it without proving it, fine, but don’t call it proof then.
Ok.
Maybe she did not have a tumor in the first place and was misdiagnosed? Unexplainable cures happens all the time in medicine and they aren’t always related to some religion or pray. They are not necessarily miracles.
We have already been through this conversation. Anecdotal instances aren’t evidence, let alone proof. I would also like to point out the rates of ’ cure ’ caused by this ’ miracle ’ are no higher than any other unexpected recovery. So, basically the odds of recovering by performing the odd rituals you claim are ’ proof ’ are on par with doing nothing at all.
This isn’t evidence. It certainly isn’t proof. As Zen pointed out, this whole thing is an argument from ignorance ( translated ) . You can’t say that you don’t know what healed someone and then say it must be your god. If this was a true miracle, it should stand up to double blind testing. Has a double blind test been run? If, not I would question why. Think of the impact a proven miracle process would have on the medical community. Think of how big pharma would try to make money off it. You can’t honestly think that if it worked it wouldn’t be exploited…or even have attempts to be exploited.
may I ask a QUESTION?
REINCARNATION OF WHAT?
i could show other more “strong” case but I’d better…
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I am not the one searching truth so if anyone wants to find out, he can do it without me. and even if not that, what proof can I show. I don’t think that you can smell or touch through Internet.
You are making a truth claim. It is not up to the person asking you to provide evidence to prove you wrong. You are making the claim, you have to support it. YOU are the one making a claim. All anyone else is saying is that they won’t believe you until you provide evidence. It’s really not a difficult concept. You say there is miracles that prove your faith. We say show us evidence. You say we can’t prove you wrong.
Please stop avoiding the legitimate question, and provide the evidence to support your claim. Otherwise stop presenting it as a true claim, and stop saying that it is proof of anything.
Sorry, but that just made me :lol:
That’s your job to find out what evidence there is for your deity and why others should believe.
You don’t want us to be condemned, do you? Help us to believe. Provide us the evidence. Ask God for assistance if you must but please help us.
I am ready to wait until it will be my time to laugh.
I would do that if you(or anyone here) really wanted but all I see is this >>> poor believers, they will see how mistaken they are. I pity them.
btw Jesus said something about giving marbles to pigs.
that is priests job not mine.
how can I prove that the miracle is true through Internet? I CAN’T! the only way is to see it yourself(what I highly doubt).
[COLOR=‘Red’]VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE![/SIZE]
Stats, studies, rigorous test results!
only study that have been done about this miracle that after st. Gabriels doctor took blood from him to examine it didn’t start corrupting. that was all and there are reports (not just few) of people who had a cancer or some other fatal illness,that got cured by the oil. that is all evidence. I myself try to understand not how the miracle happened but why it happened. “studying” miracles is not right thing in my opinion. but if you have a wish no one holds you.
Ok, reincarnation of the soul, but it still goes against Christianity. It is reincarnation!
Tell me then, how can there be a lot of evidence that Christianity is right and, at the same time, can there be a lot more evidence that Christianity is wrong?
I was hoping that you actually understand that actually no one is proving anything at all. Reincarnation is not what Ian Stevenson proved at all! He proved that, if you talk to a child who thinks to be someone else, with another name, family, job, etc, you can actually find a dead person to which those ideas fit. Does that prove reincarnation? No!
What other explanations could we give to that? A lot of other explanations: telepathy, clairvoyance, angels or demons talking to the children… I have even an explanation that does not involve anything supernatural at all: if you invent a person a give this person a few characteristics, unless your conditions are really extreme, there is a high expectation that you can actually find a dead person, or maybe even more than one, who fits at least most of the given conditions. Why? Because there is just too much people in the world!
However, even if we did not know another explanation for what Ian Stevenson documented, it does not mean you proved it. You proved an effect that could be expected if reincarnation was true, but you still did not prove reincarnation is true. You just proved that there is something to which you don’t know the answer and to which reincarnation is a possible explanation.
The same goes for the miracles you see. Pay attention: those miracles are not even properly documented, no one made interviews asking for the testimony of all witnesses, no samples were preserved for scientific analysis. Stevenson’s work is a lot more extended than that and it still does not prove what he wants to prove, it is obvious that you won’t know the explanation to those miracles either! That way, no one can even try to find the truth about those miracles. It’s a trap, you may believe it and no one is going to be able to convince you that it is wrong, not because it is true but just because the source lacks information!
If someone require a sample of that “blood” to test whether it is actually blood or if there is something mixed with the blood to preserve it, well, the believers simply won’t provide a sample! Why not? Because they don’t want to know the truth, that is why, they don’t care about the truth, they just want to keep believing, they want to stay in their ignorance! And you actually proved that you don’t want to find the truth, which proves my point:
So, is there an alternative explanation to the cures of St. Gabriel? Yes, there are lots of alternatives. It could be the energy of love that cured them (Spiritism believes in that), it could be because all humans are connected and a lot of them wanted to cure them, therefore leading in them to get cured (Buddhism believes in that). I also have an explanation for that: they could be just random unexplained cures that happens all the time. A lot of people over there believe in St. Gabriel, a lot of them get sick, pray to him and use his oil, some of them inexplicably get cured for one reason or another and, when that happens, the cure is attributed to St. Gabriel. If the doctors give those people a different explanation, well, that is going to be ignored by the believers, they prefer to stick to the explanation that it was a St. Gabriel’s miracle.
However, if someone prays to St. Gabriel and this person dies, no one will say that this proves St. Gabriel is not a miracle worker. See the irony here? When it works, it proves St. Gabriel is a saint but, when it doesn’t work, it does not prove otherwise. It is like seeing a pencil “falling up” instead of “falling down” and to say that this does not disprove gravity.