Abortion

So, I just finished this essay for a university philosophy class on morality, figured I’d chuck it up here to see what you guys think. I realize this is a necropost, but the search function pulled through once again. Anyways, here’s my essay, I can maybe link to the original articles if you guys want. It brings up some interesting points:

In this essay, I will be examining two articles in regards to the morality of abortion. The articles are “Abortion and Infanticide” by Michael Tooley, and “Why Abortion is Immoral” by Don Marquis. I will then analyze their statements using the tools I have learned in class, and then form a critical response argument revealing my own moral opinion.

Tooley’s argument is predicated on the idea that in order for a person to have a right to live, it must have the desire to live. If the organism doesn’t possess the desire to continue life, then it does not have a right to live. Tooley argues that an unborn fetus doesn’t possess the mental faculties to desire life and it does not feel the need for self-preservation. Furthermore, Tooley argues that a fetus is not in a fact a person at all. It then follows that it is not seriously wrong to terminate an unborn fetus since it does not have the right to live. In his words, “an organism possesses a serious right to life only if it possesses the concept of a self as a continuing subject of experiences and other mental states, and believes that it is itself such a continuing entity.” (Tooley, p. 44)

Essentially, what Tooley suggests is that an organism must understand what life is, that it is a collection of experiences and thoughts and ambitions, and that it must wish to partake in these experiences in order for it to have a serious right to life. If A has a desire for X, then others have a moral obligation to refrain from actions that would deprive him/her from their desires. In this case, that desire is life. Since fetuses are incapable of being self-aware in this fashion, they have to desire for continuity, and therefore, they have no serious right to life and morally may be terminated.

Tooley spends a great deal of his time classifying exactly what makes a human being a human being, in order to support his argument. He first clarifies what is meant by “person” as opposed to “human being”. The term human being, he finds, is a poor choice of words. If the moral question of abortion is based on whether or not a fetus is a human being, then the argument between pro-choice and pro-life factions comes down to a disagreement of factual properties that a fetus possesses. It is a disagreement about facts. On the other hand, if the term ‘person’ is used, philosophers are less likely to call it a factual disagreement. The disagreement may be about what properties a thing must have to be a person, or about whether a fetus at a specific stage in development possesses these properties; a moral question.

The main question that Tooley poses is this: When is a member of the species homo sapiens (human beings) a person? What properties must a thing have to have a serious right to life? At what point in the development of a human being does it possess the properties to make it a person? (Tooley, p. 43) Tooley’s entire argument is centered around these simple questions.

Tooley goes on to further clarify what is meant by a “right to life”. He says that the phrase “right to life” is misleading since it suggests that the right in question concerns the continued existence of a biological organism. He argues that this is not the case. Consider an adult human brain in the future. This adult human brain contains memories, experiences, and other mental states that are unique to that person. If perhaps, this brain could be reprogrammed so that it had different apparent memories, experience, personality traits, and other mental states, it could be argued that the previous set of experiences had been destroyed, and that the person who had those memories and experiences had ceased to be, and that their right to life had been violated. However, there was no harm to the biological body that encompasses that brain. Therefore, a right to life is the continued existence of experiences and memories that we are concerned about, not necessarily the physical aspect of the body.

Tooley then goes on to modify his original argument, stating “A is a subject of experiences and other mental states, A is capable of desiring to continue to exist as a subject of experiences and other mental states, and if A does desire to continue to exist as such an entity, then others are under a prima facie obligation not to prevent him from doing so.” (Tooley, p. 46)

The final addition to Tooley’s argument is defining what must be the case if something is to be capable of having a desire to continue to exist as a subject of experiences and other mental states. “The basic point here is that the desires a thing can have are limited by the concepts it possesses.” (Tooley, p. 46) He goes on to state that in order for a person to desire something, they have to understand what that thing is. If one is to wish that a certain thing be true, then one would have to understand it. And in order for one to understand something, it is necessary to possess the concepts involved in it. It follows that in order for one to wish something is true, it is limited by the concepts that one possesses. Applying this logic to the case of an entity that is the subject of experiences and other mental states, the conclusion drawn is that an entity cannot be the sort of thing that can desire that a subject of experiences and other mental states exist unless is possesses the concept of such a subject. In addition, said entity cannot desire that it itself continue existing as a subject of these experiences and other metal states unless it believes that it is currently such a subject. “This completes the justification of the claim that it is a necessary condition of something’s having a serious right to life that is possess the concept of a self as a continuing subject of experiences, and that it believe that it itself is such an entity.” (Tooley, p. 47)


Marquis, on the other hand, presents a very different argument. Marquis bases his argument on a very fundamental element of human morality: Is it wrong to kill us? Marquis and Tooley, as well as the vast majority of the human race, agree that killing an adult human being is seriously morally wrong. However, Marquis takes this a step further and applies an account of when it is wrong to kill to unborn fetuses. The question does not become whether or not the fetus is human, but whether or not terminating a fetus will result in the loss of a valuable future of a human being. Marquis argues that what makes killing wrong is the effect that it has on the victim, which I’m sure we can all agree on. He suggests that killing is wrong because it denies the experiences, projects, and enjoyment that would have otherwise constituted a human being’s valuable future. (Marquis, p. 190)

When someone is killed, they lose all of their experiences and values that they gained through their life, and they also lose the experience and values that they would have otherwise attained later on in their lives. Marquis explains that this can be applied to infants and unborn fetuses. By terminating an unborn fetus, the future of that fetus is directly harmed. “The future of a standard fetus includes a set of experiences, projects, activities, and such which are identical with the futures of adult human beings and are identical with the futures of young children. Since the reason that is sufficient to explain why it is wrong to kill human beings after the time of birth is a reason that also applies to fetuses, it follows that abortion is prima facie seriously morally wrong.” (Marquis, p. 192)

Marquis expands on his ‘futures-like-ours’ argument with several examples and theories that support this account of why it is wrong to kill human beings. The basis of his argument is the idea of that an unborn fetus potentially has the same future as an adult human being. Typically, a fetus develops into a baby, which is born, grows, and becomes an adult human being, no different from you and me. 

Marquis goes on to analyze his own argument. The point of his analysis is to find out what natural property ultimately explains the wrongness of killing, given that it is wrong. The analysis rests on the intuition that what makes killing a particular human of animal is what it does to that particular human or animal. The claim that what makes killing wrong is directly supported by two considerations, which Marquis lays out for us.

This theory explains why killing is considered the worst of all crimes. Since it deprives the victim of more than any other crime, killing is especially wrong. As well, it explains why people with terminal illnesses such as cancer or AIDS feel that this is bad for them. AIDS and cancer will cause a premature death, and they will lose their future, which is obviously of value to them. They believe it is a bad thing for them to die, because they will not get the future that they would have otherwise experienced had the illness not caused an early death. (Marquis, p. 190)

Upon examining the idea that what makes killing wrong is the loss to the victim the value of the victim’s future, there are even more supporting arguments for this claim. When looking at a few of the implications, this becomes clear. Take, for example, the view that it is wrong to kill only beings who are biologically human. What if, perhaps, there was a species that lived on a different planet that had futures similar to ours? Surely it would be wrong to kill them as well, wouldn’t it? Marquis’ future-like-ours theory explains this. The future of a different species would have the same moral worth as our own future, and thus, it would be wrong to kill them as well. (Marquis, p. 191)

Marquis presents a few more merits for his argument, such as the fact that the claim that the loss of one’s future is the thing that makes killing wrong does not mean that active euthanasia is wrong as well. If a person is seriously ill, and has no future except that of pain and suffering, one could say that they would not value that future very much. If they are killed, they do not suffer a loss of a valuable future, and therefore, it is not seriously morally wrong. Of course, Marquis states that there may be other reasons which would make active euthanasia wrong, but naturally he does not go into depth, seeing as euthanasia is not the topic of this essay, and it is irrelevant to the morality of abortion.

The last statement Marquis gives for his argument is that it very straightforwardly applies to children and infants. Since killing an infant or child would directly destroy the value of their future, it is prima facie seriously wrong to kill an infant or child. Since this reason is sufficient to explain why it is wrong to kill adults, children, and infants, it is also sufficient to explain why the termination of an unborn fetus is wrong as well.

In both of the essays presented by the authors, they acknowledge the struggle between pro-life and pro-choice philosophers. There can be no in between, there is only the extreme. The morality of abortion seems to be a never ending tug-of-war between the two sides, and neither can muster up a strong enough argument to topple the defense of the opposing group. Tooley and Marquis both present very interesting arguments.

In Tooley’s case, he takes a decidedly Kantian approach. He talks of the desires and values. Kant’s theory was that people had desires, and therefore anything that fulfilled those desires was of value to that particular person. In the case of the abortion, that desire is life. By explaining the right to live as the desire to continue as a self-aware entity that understands what life is and wishes to continue being alive, Tooley defines what it truly means to live and applies this to unborn fetuses. A fetus cannot ‘wish’ that it were alive, because it does not know what it is to be alive. Therefore, if it cannot wish to be alive, it does not have a serious right to live, and can morally be terminated, or aborted. 

However, this theory does not address the problem of an adult person in a coma. Say, perhaps, that an adult was in a coma for 30 days. At the end of those thirty days, that person was glad that they were able to continue living. However, while in a coma, the person was incapable of desiring life. According to Tooley’s theory, it would have been morally acceptable to end that person’s life while they were in a coma.

Marquis, on the other hand, takes a more consequentialist and utilitarian view, basing his argument on the value of a future like ours. He argues that it is wrong to kill a fetus because it would be depriving it of a valuable future that it would have had. This argument is very well formed, and seems to address some situations that Tooley’s theory cannot explain. For example, consider the person in the coma. While the person is in the coma, their future can be of value to the family around them. Even though the person himself may not value his own future anymore, others can see the value and therefore it would be wrong to kill the patient in the coma. It also applies to people wanting to commit suicide. They may not see the value in their future, even though it may still exist. Others can see the value in their future, even tremendous value in some cases. Therefore, it would be seriously morally wrong to commit suicide. 

Another problem with Tooley’s claim that a person has a right to live only if they understand that they are alive and wish to continue living is that this doesn’t apply in other situations. Say a patient needs to undergo a complex operation to save his life. Without this operation, he would surely die. Although the man doesn’t understand everything about the operation, he still has the right to receive it. According to Tooley, the man would need to learn all the specific details of his operation and fully understand it in order for him to have a right to get the operation. Perhaps this man is in a coma, and doesn’t possess the ability to comprehend the procedure and consent to it. Tooley seems to claim that this patient cannot get the life saving operation that he obviously needs. Furthermore, it would be morally ‘okay’ to let this patient die, since they weren’t conscious enough to desire to continue existing.

Marquis’ approach to this problem directly addresses it in a straightforward way. Since the man values his future, and those around him value his future as well, the surgeon ought to carry out the procedure so that the man can continue to live and continue to gain experiences and memories. He has a right to continue living, even though he is conscious, and doesn’t technically fulfill the definition of ‘person’ that Tooley has so painstakingly laid out. The man needn’t be conscious to have a right to get the operation, and he doesn’t even need to understand what the procedure is about in order to get it. Tooley’s argument just does not address this situation.

One more issue with Tooley’s claims is how we know that a human being is developed enough and possess the properties that make it a person. At what stage in development does the baby become self aware and understand what it is? When can it decide for itself whether or not it wants to live? In order for Tooley’s claim to work, there must be a specific point from which a fetus crosses the threshold and becomes a person.

One of the reasons this is made so difficult is that we simply cannot communicate with babies until they progress enough to use words and speak to us. How are we to know that the baby wishes to live? How can anyone be sure just exactly what is going through a baby’s mind? There is absolutely no way to conclusively prove whether a baby realizes that it is alive, and that it is subject to experiences and other mental states, and that it indeed wishes to continue to being such an entity. Who is to say that a baby doesn’t in fact understand this concept in their own way? It need not be in the form of intelligent words that you and I would understand, yet it could still be that a baby wishes to live and has a right to live. According to Tooley, it would not.

What if you were to come across the rare case of an adult person that truly did not understand what it was to be alive, and they did not consciously wish to continue living, they just simply did it because they know nothing else? Would it be seriously morally wrong to kill this person? Tooley seems to think it would not, while Marquis would argue that the person potentially had great value in their future, whether they knew it or not. To a degree, this can be said of one who is mentally handicapped as well. They may not understand the concept of being alive, and they may not explicitly wish to continue living, but sure they must not want to die. This is a form of the alternate account stated by Marquis called ‘discontinuation’, which states that it would be wrong to kill a person not if they wished for their life not to be discontinued. (Marquis, p. 195)

Another problem with Tooley’s claim is stated by Marquis himself. “One problem with the desire account is that we do regard it as seriously wrong to kill persons who have little desire to live or who have no desire to live or, indeed, have a desire not t live. We believe it is seriously wrong to kill the unconscious, the sleeping, those who are tired of life, and those who are suicidal. The value-of-a-human-future account renders standard morality intelligible in these cases.” (Marquis, p. 196) Tooley’s definition of the right to live does not account for these cases whatsoever. 

I strongly agree with Marquis in terms of the future-like-ours claim. Indeed, if asked, I would argue that by destroying a human fetus, one would be directly responsible for the absence of a human being some 9 months in the future. Had that fetus been given the opportunity, it would typically have developed into a baby, a child, and later a functional adult member of the home sapiens species. I would argue that a fetus does not have to be conscious to have a right to live. Indeed, on a very basic level, does it not exhibit the desire to live simply by developing? What reason does a fetus have for growing and progressing towards life? It is coded instinct in the very cells that make up the fetus. The very basis of life is self preservation, and as cells grow and multiply, they constitute life itself. Although it cannot be written down in the form of intelligent language, or even depicted in an image, a cell certainly desires to live otherwise it would cease to function. Life is the driving purpose behind organic beings, because without life there is nothing.

I would argue that it matters not whether the collection of cells is sentient, or even if we can comprehend what drives them towards growth. What matters is the ends that they achieve. Eventually through the work of the cells, a baby is born, just the same as you and I were at one point in our lives. It goes through the same stages of development as us, it requires energy to sustain itself, and it will eventually have a future worth valuing like us. Therefore, it should follow that a fetus is a person just like us, and it would be seriously morally wrong to kill it.

Certainly Marquis has come very close to what it means to live. Tooley’s claim is well formed and meticulous, but can be invalidated with the use of counterexamples, and situations where it would be plain absurd. For example, if we live only because we desire to live, the pain of one’s death could be eliminated by a mere reconfiguration of one’s desires, which is absurd to say the least. 

Marquis has a described an account that is well formed as well, but is philosophically broad enough that it can be applied to many situations and circumstances that Tooley’s cannot. Tooley is so thorough in his definition of what constitutes a person and whether or not they have a right to live, his claim is narrowed down to a specific set of circumstances and cannot  be compatible in other cases.

After presenting my own arguments, I can safely conclude that I agree with Marquis’ claim that destroying the valued future of a human being is what makes killing wrong, and fetuses have valuable futures that are similar to our own, so it follows that destroying the future of an unborn fetus is seriously morally wrong.

Oh wow I’ll need to get some sleep before I read that. BRB…

by the time someone has finished reading that, black mesa might come out :bulb:

…Really?, that actually is not really true, since in America about 80% of all teen pregnacies are from christians, I think abortion should be pro-choice, it doesn’t matter whether or not the country is mostly christian, its only about 60% christian anyways. Gay Marraige is legal in the US and being gay is supposed to be a sin, its the same thing

Oh and for anyone confused about Sudpuzzer’s comment let me put this in lamence terms:

There are these 2 guys, 1 thinks abortion is fine, the other thinks its immoral.

Guy 1 thinks abortion is fine because a Human Fetus doesn’t have self counciousness yet so it doesn’t know about death or life and there for does not strive for life. killing it will make do difference in it’s mind which it doesn’t have.

guy 2 thinks abortion is wrong because killing an adoult is morally wrong, he says that the infant you are killing might be the next Einstien, and in doing killing an indevidual that might in the future contribute something to the human race.

yeah but if he dies, then some other kid will be the next Einstein

Marquis’ argument is THE classic potentiality argument used by pro-lifers for 20 years.

At this point, the argument is more propaganda than an actual argument, as proponents of the position must be aware that the thing is a piece of shit.

I’ll say it again - it’s a potentiality argument - and that’s not it’s only problem.

Back then, I meant that atheists are younger and younger people suffer more often from undesired pregnancies, not that girls with undesired pregnancies are often atheists. There is a big difference. The only point is that there might be a significant amount of atheist girls wanting to have an abortion.

In any case, that was a long time ago and my opinion on this subject changed a lot. Christianity is often associated with sexual guilt. But at some point Christian girls give in and have sex (that is human nature, you cannot fight against nature) and they won’t use condoms because of their guilt. Atheists, however, don’t have a problem having sex and using condoms, so they probably suffer from undesired pregnancy less often.

That is one more reason for me to believe abortion should be legalized. If only Christians were not so cruel about “sinners” and didn’t attack aggressively anyone that “sins”, if only they were a little more open-minded, then there might have been much less undesired pregnancy, among other problems. Oh, well…

Your essay is very well written and well thought. However, it doesn’t take the mother and the circumstances of the pregnancy into account.

For instance, the mother’s potential value might diminish a lot because of the pregnancy. She could be the next Einstein, and the pregnancy might take all her time and potential away. The relatives of the mother might also lose their value because they will have to spend time to take care of the child.

It might also be that the mother decides not to ever have children again (because of trauma, unhappiness or because she lost the opportunity to meet her future husband). If she had an abortion, she might have had two children.

There is also one big issue, in my opinion, with both views: there is no absolute definition of “morally right” or “morally wrong”, those are social agreements that we, humans, created in order to establish and maintain society in order. Abortion not being permitted causes a lot more confusion and harm in society then it benefits it. First, because of the conditions in which those unwanted children are born, and also the fact that they are unwanted. Second, because more people means more problems and less education, which means less Einsteins around.

Abortion should not be needed in a perfect society, but we obviously do not live in a perfect society. The choice of becoming a mother is for the mother herself, not for anyone else. No theoretical view of the world is more important and informative than reality and no one has a better perspective of what will happen than the pregnant girl.

I think the biggest problem with the “potentiality” argument is that an embryo (which represents the stage of the vast majority of abortions) is only a potential person.

I think the best dividing line is “separation from the host organism” or “birth”.

And then, it’s up to the woman to make the final decision; not me, not the doctor, not the man, not government, not someone on the street holding up signs with pictures of blood-drenched dismembered embryos/fetuses…no one but the woman.

I know a woman who actually used abortion as birth control and I think it’s WAY more common than you think. This woman was really badly into drugs and had sex for money so she could afford those drugs. She had at least 4-5 abortions that I know of, placed one child for adoption, and she “raised” (if that’s what you wanna call it) the another one. I’m not going to argue with what I believe is wrong or right but I just want it know that there are a lot of selfish people out there that only care about themselves. You might just be giving the human race too much credit if you don’t see how self centered and reckless they can be.

Ah, and what are the basis of these claims? What makes Tooley’s argument ‘not’ shit? When philosophically analyzed, I find Marquis’ argument far more sound than Tooley’s.

Ah, this is a good point. Perhaps if you were to take a utilitarian stance and define value as a quantification of happiness, then your point would be very valid. This is indeed one of the faults of Marquis’ argument. How do you quantify value?

I would argue that even though the mother may not necessarily see the value in her own future, but that does not mean it exists. Marquis’ claim is designed to take this into account.

I would argue differently. Obviously, Marquis’ claim has to apply to a standard fetus. There’s no argument in the world that could possibly address every single situation and circumstance surrounding the conception. That’s not to say that Marquis is saying that abortion is always wrong.

If you take a perfectly healthy fetus and a perfectly healthy mother, you will get a baby.It is not only a ‘potential’ person, it WILL have an identical future to you and I, that is to say, growing up and becoming an adult. Marquis’ claim takes into account situations where the fetus would not result in a well developed child. In situations where the fetus would NOT have a valuable future, for example, if it was a medical fact that it would be still born (I don’t know how this would be determined, just an example) it wouldn’t have a future, and therefore it would not be morally wrong to abort it.

Therefore, I would argue that it follows that an unborn fetus should be treated as though it would have the same future as you and I, and I would argue that the ‘line’ so to speak is conception.

The biggest problem with a potentiality argument is that it’s a potentiality argument.These kinds of arguments are problematic in a number of different and obvious ways.

  1. They’re easily dismissed using their negative twin. This particular argument not only uses potentiality, but assumes one and only one specific potential - sentience. But this isn’t the only potential, there is also non-sentience.

The argument not only uses a fallacious assumption, but in creating a potentiality argument, you’ve created an argument that supports two opposite conclusions. In other words, if you assume non-sentience as the one and only potential, instead of sentience as the one and only potential, then the same EXACT argument supports the opposite conclusion.

1b) The actuality, as opposed to the fantasy/potentiality is that more than 50% of fertilized ova are flushed from the hosts body naturally - 30-50% of all are lost even before implantation. So, non-sentience certainly has a greater potential.

  1. Potentiality arguments start to get ridiculous when you extrapolate the conclusion. Just a few of a gazillion examples:

A) Given the conclusion, every fertilized ovum has the potential for sentience, and every ovum and every sperm has the potential to fertilize or be fertilized. Therefore, every unfertilized ovum or fruitless sperm cell represents an immoral act. In addition, any activity that has the potential to destroy these cells or prevent them from reaching their potential is an immoral act: masturbation, any form of birth-control, abstaining from sex, nocturnal emissions, blow-jobs, any physical activity that could potentially injure your nuts, like riding a bike on a street full of potholes, etc.

B) We now have the knowledge to clone ourselves. Extrapolating the moral conclusion of this potentiality argument means that anything that damages our cells is an immoral act, as each cell contains genetic material that represents a potential sentient life. Furthermore, even though cells may die, their genetic material is still salvageable and represent that same potential. So, according to this potentiality argument, showering is the same immoral act as abortion, but multiplied a few million times.

You could go on and on and on creating examples based on this moral conclusion using the same potentiality from which it was derived. Go ahead, it might make a fun drinking game.

Potentiality arguments: DO NEVER TEST. They suck.

You’re willing to base your whole perception of humanity on this single woman?

Can you really blame a woman who needs money so desperately that she sells herself and don’t even have the dignity to demand her clients to use condom? This is one of the last examples that I would call self centered. First you give her a decent job, take her into a psychologist to deal with her probably low self esteem and give back her dignity, then you judge her for having abortions.

I wouldn’t quantify value. There are lots of more or less valid ways to define and quantify value, the problem is: they are all theoretical. It is very beautiful and comforting to think that the world works as in theory, like a fairy tale, but it does not. There are many cases which have a theoretical answer and which that answer works in. However, something as delicate as an abortion needs a real approach, it needs measuring the pros and cons in each situation and, since the pregnant girl is by far the most affected person, she makes the call.

That is why law is so complicate and has so many exceptions, because no simple approach works all the time.

But, as you said in later in the same post, it also does not mean that the child will have value in his future, specially if it is born unwanted or when the mother doesn’t have good financial and health conditions.

This is only one example out of many that I could talk about and just from my distant relatives alone. All I’m saying is that the idea that humans should be given the benefit of the doubt is kinda naive. I’m not saying good people aren’t out there I’m just saying that hummanity as a whole has a lot of problems.

Yes I can call her selfish and blame her for her acts. Are you saying people who allow them selves to get put in these situations shouldn’t be held accountable for their own actions?

A great example of this is her one daughter who she didn’t place for adoption or abort. This girl was raised in the worst situation you can imagine (way worse than that of the mothers) and regularly suffered mental physical and sexual abuse as a child. Well she has since grown up to put her self through collage, buy a house, get married, land a good job in computers, and have a husband and son. I’m not saying that she is the most well adjusted person I know, but she definitely didn’t let her situations define who she was as a person.

I think people are way to quick to place blame on their own situations or other people in their lives, that they don’t take accountability for their own life. If this woman can make somthing of her self with the hand she was delt in life than anyone can.

Yeah, I actually totally agree with you. When I first started this philosophy class, I struggled really hard with the idea that morality could be defined in every situation. I always just thought of morality as a weak attempt at describing something that occurs in everybody to different degrees that helps them naturally decide what is right and wrong. It is always changing and adapting to the situation, and thus impossible to define. As you could probably guess, I don’t take the class very seriously, and that essay was extremely difficult for me to write. And now, I find myself simply defending my essay and the stuff I’ve read in the past couple of days, not necessarily my own beliefs :stuck_out_tongue:

You do realize that many prostitutes are not simply there because they ‘allowed themselves’ to be put into that position. It’s not as if it was their goal or a preconceived notion. Women usually end up in that situation either because of desperation. Granted I think that many of those girls COULD have changed their situation before they ended up in that line of work, but in many cases it is not as if they are lazy, or lacking motivation. Your judgmental attitude, and trivialization of what is a major decision based on desperation is deplorable. To say that they should be held accountable for every negative thing that happens to them is even worse.

hey, guess what? you guys are men and have no say in the rights of women. the end. you can never become pregnant. you can never have children. you will never be in the situation of any of these women, and you cannot judge them for any of their actions.

I never thought I’d agree with Fancy so fervently… but this ^

Before you start name calling and finger pointing re-read my post, I am still talking about this individual here and not prostitutes as a whole for I dont know their unique circumstances.

As a recap all I was trying to say is this woman is a piece of shit (I can say this because I know her and know what her circumstances are), people like to blame society too much for all that is wrong with their lives, Indivisuals can and should be held accountable for their own actions (although I agree some things are out of peoples hands), and the human race isn’t full of sunshine and rainbows and it has a lot of problems.

Where did I trivialize or judge anything that I don’t know about first hand? You cant speak on this for you don’t know this woman or what she has put me and members of my family through. I wasn’t talking about prostitutes as a whole I was just using HER as a reference on how SOME people in this world act.

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