Valve releases 'Source 2 like' Updated Modding Tools for Dota 2 (Hammer 2014 and more

[JeffMOD]

@JeffMOD

(First impressions)

It has now been pointed out to me that above the 3D viewport in the default view there’s a new button that changes the layout. (and I somehow missed it)
You can set it to have up to a 4-view layout, which is what Hammer traditionally has had and what is in my opinion best for 3D work.

So scratch that complaint. Also people have obviously been able to get meshes to work, so I guess that’s out too.

I suppose they just optimized the configuration for Dota editing before releasing it and changed some of the editing controls to be easier for new users or something.

[Crypt]

I’ve got some responses to your… lab record.
I’ve only put so much time with experimenting so someone correct me if I get something incorrect.

Right clicking in the 3D view moves it
But only if you drag - otherwise it brings up the old context menu.
Bit of an odd choice if you ask me, I expect many people will move by accident when they mean to bring up the menu

I was worried about this too, especially since the issue is so apparent in the Leadwerks editor. But after a few hours, it only happened a few times. What they did right, here was making it so that it doesn’t open on a short click, rather if you don’t move the view at all. It could stand to be fixed, but isn’t as big a problem as I thought it would be.

You do get a 3D drag tool now

That was in the previous Hammer, too, you had to toggle it by pressing X.

which is good since the 2D views are basically gone
This will be horrid for [on] grid stuff
They’re still there, but you only get 2 viewports

As I pointed out to ya (but I’ll restate here for anyone who happens to be confused), no they’re not. There’s a tiny button above the 3D viewport that lets you change layouts, including the classic quad view.

Clipping now removes faces

Clipping is a bit different now. It’s not so much that it removes faces, but rather it doesn’t create new ones. You’re slicing faces and edges of meshes now, not totally solid brushes.

The texture projection tool is just a really bad implementaton of the old face edit tool

This is actually basically a UV mapping tool, I think. I’ll make a point to stay away from it personally, I don’t need that Hell in Hammer, too.

I just realized the massive scale I’ve been working on. Good to know that without a 2D grid your only way to know is to have entites in

There is both 2D views, and a grid size indicator. Not really any different from previous iteration of Hammer.

Also, shift-Z viewport increasing does work, but is basically useless now because the viewport area is so narrow

You can close out of many of the menu things and clear up space by going to View > Toolbars.

There’s a class properties window open by default, which is the same menu you get when double clicking on an entity or rightclicking and selecting properties
Or not, as the second method is now gone

You can close that out for more space. You can bring up that same properties box with ALT+ENTER, like always.

Selecting things by vertex does NOT get you vertex manipulation, but you can bevel things.

Gotta be in Translate mode!

Texture scale seems to be completely different from what it used to be, as .25 is friggin’ massive.

I think it might be a DOTA thing, or maybe you had a huge texture. Here’s nodraw at .25.

Can’t for the life of me figure out how the mesh stuff works

It’s a bit different than working with brushes, but not too much so. I’d read the VDCW documentation. It’s really easy after a few minutes of playing around.

All in all, I’m really happy about this editor. I’ve got some minor gripes, though: When a mesh is selected and you’re in vert, edge or face edit mode, you can see every edge in it at all times, they don’t get obscured, the gizmos often get in the way when selecting, the 3D viewport seem very bright, and lastly, having to constantly reposition the pivot point it’s a hassle.

[dky.tehkingd.u]

Here’s the thing though: As much as they want you to think that meshes replace BSP brushes, they ultimately can’t really do that. They seem separated from the standard BSP system in a lot of ways (mostly by violating many BSP geometry invariants), which means they likely can’t divide visleafs, which means they wouldn’t be usable as the base geometry for a first-person game since they don’t actually block visibility. The only reason why they don’t need standard brushes at all in the DOTA 2 editor is because it’s a top-down game, where visleafs and the usual BSP system (including collision) aren’t all that important anyway.

I can see meshes being a great supplement to standard brushes in a first-person game, but I can’t see them replacing brushes entirely, mostly because of the visibility problem. If anything, I’d love to see meshes become the new func_detail/func_illusionary.

[JohnWorfin]

Source 2 and the next installment of half life are going to be valves flagship products. We will see both when the steambox is finally released

[Maxey]

@dky.tehkingd.u

Here’s the thing though: As much as they want you to think that meshes replace BSP brushes, they ultimately can’t really do that. They seem separated from the standard BSP system in a lot of ways (mostly by violating many BSP geometry invariants), which means they likely can’t divide visleafs, which means they wouldn’t be usable as the base geometry for a first-person game since they don’t actually block visibility. The only reason why they don’t need standard brushes at all in the DOTA 2 editor is because it’s a top-down game, where visleafs and the usual BSP system (including collision) aren’t all that important anyway.

I can see meshes being a great supplement to standard brushes in a first-person game, but I can’t see them replacing brushes entirely, mostly because of the visibility problem. If anything, I’d love to see meshes become the new func_detail/func_illusionary.

They could be using an occlusion culling system like Umbra in Source 2.

[dky.tehkingd.u]

That’s certainly possible. I can see that being implemented on top of standard BSP, although I don’t know if it would be easy to completely REPLACE it (since the entire definition of “space” in the Source engine relies on the BSP tree algorithms, and I get the feeling that getting rid of that would require heavily modifying the core). We’ll have to see what happens once Source 2 finally hits…

[JeffMOD]

Well, after looking at some more documentation and other people’s experiences, I can say without a doubt that I was wrong about the new Hammer.

Let that be a lesson to everyone - never judge anything (including people) based off of first impressions alone. There might be a lot of things you aren’t seeing.

Also, bringing back a form of the SDK launcher is always welcome.

[Jack_Freeman]

But the SDK Launcher is kind of still there. Launch the workshop tools, choose an addon and then you can choose Hammer, Model Editor, Material Editor, etc etc in the top icons.

[Dadster]

@JohnWorfin

Source 2 and the next installment of half life are going to be valves flagship products. We will see both when the steambox is finally released

Haven’t numerous versions of Steamboxes, from various vendors, already been released, or am I missing something??? Joking, are you (Yoda)?

[JeffMOD]

@Jack Freeman

But the SDK Launcher is kind of still there. Launch the workshop tools, choose an addon and then you can choose Hammer, Model Editor, Material Editor, etc etc in the top icons.

Yes.
I am welcoming it back after Steampipe tried to abolish it.

[garrthbarrttinn]

@Dadster

Haven’t numerous versions of Steamboxes, from various vendors, already been released, or am I missing something??? Joking, are you (Yoda)?

AFAIK none of them are shipping with SteamOS, in which case they’re not technically Steamboxes.

All the same though I wouldn’t expect Sauce 2 and HL3 to launch with the Steamboxes. That doesn’t seem much like Valve’s style. They’ll release it when they’re ready to release it, which may or may not relatively arbitrarily correspond to the Steambox release. I don’t think they’d hold back either release to match the other just for the sake of marketing.

[Jack_Freeman]

@JeffMOD

Yes.
I am welcoming it back after Steampipe tried to abolish it.

Oh, I thought you were saying that there wasn’t one and you’d like one. Mistake on my behalf, sorry.

[Crypt]

I like the flexibility, but workflow seems significantly slower.

@Crypt

It’s not so much that it removes faces, but rather it doesn’t create new ones.

I just noticed something about this, it does automatically select the edges where you clipped, so in order to create the new face, you just have to switch to edge mode and hit P.

[Jack_Freeman]

Or you could check the “cap new surfaces” button.

[Crypt]

Whoa, how did I miss that?
[COLOR=‘Black’]Answer: Being an idiot.

[ToT]

The loading times seem significantly faster on Source 2, glad they fixed that.

[JohnWorfin]

@garrthbarrttinn

AFAIK none of them are shipping with SteamOS, in which case they’re not technically Steamboxes.

All the same though I wouldn’t expect Sauce 2 and HL3 to launch with the Steamboxes. That doesn’t seem much like Valve’s style. They’ll release it when they’re ready to release it, which may or may not relatively arbitrarily correspond to the Steambox release. I don’t think they’d hold back either release to match the other just for the sake of marketing.

I know it has not been their style in the past but at this point, 6 years after folks at valve giving a 2008 release date for EP3 and saying that the modular nature of source means no new engine revisions, just small upgrades and recently their forray into the “console” market, anything is possible