Socialism vs. Capitalism

#1

Socialism breeds laziness. Why should I work if someone else will do it for
me?

Why, indeed? Because eventually you reach the point where more people are
NOT working than those who are, and eventually it becomes apparent that
those who ARE working don’t have enough hours in the day to support those
who aren’t working.

Perhaps the best way of making an objective comparison between Socialism and
Capitalism is to look at which countries employ which system. OK, so which
countries are leaders of the free world, and which ones are second-rate?

#2

Your argument is invalid.
The capitalist countries of today are either descendants or splinters from great colonizing kingdoms of the past. It is so very easy to be the economic leader, if your country is built upon the blood of countless slaves and pillaged nations which you subdued.

Which is in fact the very fundamental problem of humanity: Some “racers” in the big race of our world, the race of LIFE, have started earlier than others. And some didn’t even have a chance to get the necessary sport equipment for this race.

Till the end of my life, I will have my living options hindered by the fact that when my country overthrew communism and started developing into capitalistic democracy, I wasn’t old enough to be able to participate in the privatization of national wealth. Simply put, those who were 18 and older could potentially grab huge wealth for a small price, while those who were still kids, couldn’t. So, someone who had grown kids, could gain much more wealth, than someone who didn’t have grown kids, or who lived alone.

It’s not fair. And what socialism says is that we should attempt to make this unfairness of life (in the economic sense of things) “less unfair”.

I don’t mind someone having much more than me. What I WOULD mind a lot is if I am dying in the street from hunger, simply because capitalists and their bribed politicians are looking the other way.

In USA, a mother that gives birth has to return to work within 5 weeks. If there are complications with the birth and she has to stay longer in the hospital than just 1 night, she has to pay a lot of money for the stay – as if the very fact that she gave birth to a future tax payer wasn’t worth respect. Does that sound REASONABLE to you? It doesn’t sound reasonable to me.

Some 20% of Americans have no health insurance at all. They come from low income origins and simply cannot afford it. As a result, they are prone to health problems (since they cannot access quality health care), which is damaging for their ability to have children. Their children are likely to also be low-income, and we have a vicious cycle here.

=======
There’s a saying: Taxes are money that the middle class pays so that the lower class doesn’t kill the upper class. How very true.

#3

You shouldn’t look at the extremes of “capitalism” and “socialism” in order to judge socialist factors.

History has shown us that pure socialism doesn’t work, and if the US had kept sailing its course, the future would’ve shown us that pure capitalism wouldn’t work either.

So what have a lot of countries done (Western Europe, for example)? They’ve mixed up capitalism and socialism into a sculpture that offers the best of capitalism to the businesses and industries, and the best of socialism to the people. The result is wealthy countries with a good quality of life (if this was economics, you could say that socialism-capitalism is the break-even point, whereas capitalism and socialism on their own are well within the loss-margin).

Obama isn’t trying to turn the US into the USSR, he’s merely trying to mix things up so that the US can actually start getting closer to the break-even point instead of sitting on its sinking ship while all the rich folks are stealing the lifeboats.

#4

ass debate

#5

STARS AND STRIPES BEAT HAMMER AND SICKLE, LOOK IT UP!

/caps

#6

This doesn’t make any sense. Human nature doesn’t work that way. People want to work. To say they don’t is to deny hundreds of thousands of years of human history. In fact, capitalism makes people lazy.

Think of it this way:

You have two people making the exact same amount of money per hour. One works his tail off and the other does the bare minimum. The business won’t advance either worker because there’s nothing there for them to do, so the one working his tail off begins to slack. Why should he work like a dog for the same money that the other that’s virtually coasting also does?

This paragraph is, therefore, based upon fallaciousness:

Remember, you have to deny human history to believe this to be so.

Okay! Let’s do that! Define your terms. Which countries employ socialism as an ECONOMIC system and which countries employ capitalism as an ECONOMIC system? Governmental systems are different. You can have a totalitarian capitalist country and you can have a democratic republic socialist country. Be sure you compare apples to apples.

This is vague. Define your terms.

EDIT: And shouldn’t this be in the Massdebating Hall? Should I use the REPORT function to get the mods to move it?

#7

Massdebating hell?

#8

Moved to masturbating hall as requested.

#9

Thanks, Fridge! :slight_smile:

#10

But you said it yourself: if two people have the same job, one of them is going to do the work for the other one if the latter won’t take any consequences for that.

Here in Brazil we have a terrible, terrible law that states that no public worker[1] can be fired without justifiable reason. That does not prejudice public universities (which here are much better than private ones) because professors like to work. But you would be amazed how big the degree of laziness is in other areas.

Our public education (primary and secondary school) is falling apart (and, of course, the government will deny everything). Many teachers just enter the class and read books while the students transform the class into a mess. In many public institutions (like INSS, which deals with retirement and where my mother works), half of workers do the work while the other half just scratch their noses.

That is much different with industries, private institutions, etc, where you get fired if you don’t work like you should. If you don’t work, you don’t get the money, so you don’t have an option.

I would agree with you that people who have an inspiration like to work. For instance, scientists aspire for the truth, how things work, or just for showing everyone how freaking intelligent they are, so they work and don’t care if they aren’t making too much. But for the general worker, laziness is unavoidable.

Can you elaborate more on that? Because I don’t remember anything from history that say that people like to work.

Now, my opinion on Socialism vs Capitalism. I agree with Bolteh, the best is a break-even point. No one should starve to death for not having where to work, but letting people work by their on will would only work in a society a thousand times more mature than the current one (Star Trek comes to my mind now).

Nowadays, the society is too much divided by race, sexual preference, religion, beliefs and wealthiness. People avoid even looking at and talking to each other on the street. We have thieves, murderers, rapists, drug dealers… Until the day that all that changes, socialism will just be an utopia.

I believe strongly that the future society will be mature enough not to care about being rich more than wealth and healthiness of the society in general. People will be much more united to face common problems than today, no discrimination, no violence, no crimes. I don’t think it will look like today’s socialism at all, but we, humans, should start working today for that to happen. Unfortunately, I am afraid we won’t live enough to see it :frowning:

[1] A person that works for the city or state or country, like policemen, teachers, public institution workers…

#11

^ okay, what do you think we should do?

#12

I’d like Capitalism, because then I can keep everything that I earn and kill people that try to infringe on my rights.

#13

I want National Healthcare. :hmph:

#14

The thing with that is, we’ll be taxed more.

#15

It is hard to change radically the entire world, specially by ourselves, but it is fairly easy to do little things to change it at small steps.

We can help or join non-governmental organizations which try to preserve the environment or cure people with cancer, or donate food to some institution near your home in a regular basis. For instance, ever heard of Folding at Home? It is very easy to install it in your PC, and you will already help scientists to find cure for some diseases by doing… nothing.

Each person should give a part of its time and skills back for humanity. For instance, in Brazil there is mathematician named Elon Lages Lima who runs a project that trains math teachers with the objective to make the teaching of mathematics a little better. He (and many other mathematicians from Impa) also wrote many very good math books that are sold at cheap prices. I personally intend to follow some of his steps (there are many areas in math that still need good, cheap books around here).

Another example of a good person is a deputy[1] named Cidinha Campos who loves to criticize other politicians. Well, she doesn’t love to do criticize, but she does it anyway. There is a video on youtube (sorry, Portuguese only) where she criticizes the deputy José Nader (a thief, to say the least) who indicated himself to be the president of the institution that is supposed to deal with the public money of the state of Rio de Janeiro. She was the only one in there who had the courage to do that.

How each one is going to use its time to make the humanity better is up to each one. No one need to be a great person like the two examples I gave above. Just wishing and looking for some way to help is already enough, because who searches will eventually find what to do. Hell, keeping your own integrity can already do wonders, that is everything that Cidinha Campos does. The very best we can do is to spread this wish, the wish to help, and integrity, honor. That is all we need to do. And we will still have time to play Black Mesa :smiley: (well, if it ever gets released :stuck_out_tongue: )

[1] don’t know if the term is correct, got it in Google translate.

#16

They both have ups and downs. There’s no 100% correct way to run the world.

Personally, I would like it if America was a little more socialist (ie health care), while still being Capitalist for the most part.

#17

“less unfair”…that’s funny. Because, once people realize that they’ll all make the same - no matter how hard they work - they’ll become lazy: “eh, someone else will do it.” The people who work hard and earn money deserve it, the government has no right to take away the money they worked for. When people live off the government, a great deal of the time they don’t try to better their lives; they’re fine with living off the government. If a homeless man spends all of his gov’t earned money on whiskey, when he gets next month’s allowance, what’s he going to spend it on? Whiskey.

There are exceptions to every rule and you know it.

That “20 %” …while your story may be true some of the time, some people just don’t want health insurance, or they feel they just don’t need it. It’s their choice. Why should the government make it for them?

[QUOTE=Obama]
Every American citizen has a right to health care.

What would be your motivation to work if you make the same as everybody else? In the most extreme case, the Steve Jobs would be just as wealthy as the homeless man down the street.

#18

socialism != communism :hmph:

How about all the people that desperately need health care but simply can’t afford it, through no fault of their own? Should they be left to suffer or even die?

I’m quite sure it’s a universal human right, which I’m quite sure the US signed and is supposed to adhere to.

Again, socialism != communism! Get it straight.

You can look at that at a different angle though. If everyone makes the same amount of money, there’s more incentive for people to do something they want to do. If people do something they like, they’re more likely to work well.
On the other hand, in a capitalist society, many people just can’t do what they want to do, and end up in a dead end job they can’t get out of, and will then start to slack off.

That sort of argument is just plain silly.

#19

Because if/when they end up in the emergency room without insurance, the doctors are required by law to stabilize them. And then the tax payers cover the bill, which almost always ends up being more expensive than if they would’ve had just had insurance-covered preventive health care in the first place.

#20

Then we arrive at another problem: who would pick the garbage? Clean the streets? There are many jobs that no one wants to do.

I agree with you that a person that likes a job works much better than one that doesn’t. The only problem in capitalism is people’s culture: they go after the money, not after what they like to do. But someone competent who likes to do something (and is good at that) has a very high chance of success in capitalism.

I am not sure, but, in soviet Russia, the citizens could not choose their jobs, could they? Maybe in a theoretical socialism they could, but, then, I wouldn’t put much faith in a theoretical system, specially one that has already failed once.

Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.