Self Identity (friendly)debate thread

#1

Okay, I accidentally this whole thing in the YLYL so here we have a dedicated place for it. you all know the rules:

Don’t be a douche
Don’t be a baby
Know you aren’t going to convince anyone on the internet
Realize people have different views and that is probably actually okay

Okay, so I’ll start this out with my two bits that I want to get out, I think the whole thing is a load of tripe. If your dingle dangles you are a boy, if it doesn’t, you are a girl. Gender identity stems from assumptions that boys (with dangly dingles) should act one way and that girls (no dangle) should act another. It then attempts to make people who don’t conform to these set guidelines by giving them the opposite identity, which is quite frankly retarded beyond all words. Because mentally, people are people and not boys and girls, there is no simple designation that will account for everyone so they started making new extra-retarded designations for people who don’t fall neatly into any particular category. Fast-forward to today, the system which was meant to make people feel better about themselves is making every insecure idget question their self identity rather than dealing with the REAL issues in their lives, essentially making gender identity a self fulfilling prophecy. The proper way to deal with the issue would be to disassociate mentality from gender.

TLDR: The western crisis that is “gender identity” is only a thing because some well meaning fucktard started spewing nonsense instead of using their brain for half a minute, and the masses jumped on board because “why should I think when other people can do that for me”

#2

The biggest problem here is that gender identity does not stem from the dangly bits between one’s legs or inside one’s body. Gender identity is borne entirely in the brain and brain studies have shown that cisgender and transgender men (i.e., “female to male”) share similar brain makeups, the same with cisgender and transgender women (i.e., “male to female”).

The vast majority of the time (probably 98-99% of the time), the person’s gender identity and the “dangly bits” match. The problem comes where there’s a mismatch.

P.S.: That “Don’t be a douche” thing was broken by you.

#3

Like I said in YLYL, I’m all for people identifying however they want. However, I felt that the articles contents were…drastic. They seemed wrong. It just seemed wrong to me that someone would saw off their own arm or leg. I’d support a friend during this situation, but… I would push for them to get help because gender identity is one thing to find out for yourself but crushing your own limbs because you wanna be disabled is…well it, to me, feels wrong. I wouldn’t condemn anyone for their choice, and I wouldn’t actively seek to degrade them for their feelings. That’s plain wrong and sick to do. But I would try to help them, and if it fails, I would still support them.

#4

Well hopefully this doesn’t degrade into a flame war… In b4 close.

Like I iterated in YLYL, I have no qualms with anyone wanting to identify in some other manner because of your mental state or some such, I have no problem with that. By all means, if you feel you’re a woman, get a sex change. I don’t care. It’s none of my business. Just don’t force your views on me or anyone else.

That line above is precisely what pissed me off last year during the whole confederate flag thing in the US. I don’t care if you think it represents racism (it doesn’t - in actualality that flag is the Virginia battle flag that was used during that time, the actual confederate flag was something drastically different) it’s freedom of speech. It’s protected by the first amendment in the US. To quote the author Evelyn Beatrice Hall: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

There are bigger problems than social ones inside of your respective countries. Stop caring about the social atmosphere and care more about the physical needs; infrastructure is failing, schools and housing are getting more expensive year-to-year, stupid laws are being put into play that screw the public, and a whole slew of other stuff that has far far far more important implications than worrying about if some flag is racist or not.

The above is pretty much how I feel about “identity politics,” there are far worse problems on the table and why I think people who complain about these things should get their head out of their arse and think about the more pressing problems in western society (this is why I called said people children). I’ll go on an off-tangent if I continue with that line of thought and possibly offend someone (if I haven’t already), I personally don’t care if I offend someone, but I’d like to keep it civil.

Suffice to say, I have a lot to say about this topic.

Edit: Essentially, physical needs should come first and foremost, social second if at all and screw political correctness. Don’t get me wrong, there are some social issues in society that need to be fixed (sexism, civil rights, gay people not being able to get married).

#5

Now here is where I make it controversial, I think transgender is just as happily misguided as transable. The reason is because these people have been duped into believing in an imaginary issue. Unless you are some kind of major sexual kinklord, every other reason to change your gender is a fabrication of scociety.

Same goes for transable, either you have ulterior (government paycheck) motives, or you have been duped into misdiagnosing your life issues at a foundational level.

EDIT: Missed you post on my phone Dansan the first time. I thin you missed my point, you are saying identity is a mental state, and I am saying I agree 100%. Tell me what gender identity would be if we didn’t designate a mental state to a specific gender in the first place.

P.S. If I offended you try reading it again in a different tone. I think that’s also covered in the rules somewhere too

#6

I haven’t done my research (sounds like Daniel has, which I’d be interested in reading) so my opinion here is uneducated and definitely subject to change as I get more information, but I’ve also been under the impression that gender identity itself is entirely a social construct. Y’know, if you’re a female but think you were supposed to be a man based on how you act or dress or that sort of thing, those ideas on what a man or woman is are entirely products of social norm that are actively changing. “Like a man” is a fake idea. “Like a woman” just the same. If you were born a female, you’re biologically a female, end of. If you “identify” as a man, you’re just likening yourself to a pretend idea of what a man is based on the current “rules” of society. Act how you want, dress, talk, date, whatever. It’s all fine. You’re still a female, saying you identify as a man is just slapping on an unnecessary pretend label to a cookie cutter idea of a person.

“I should have been a man because I feel this way and that way.” No, that just means you’re capable of feeling that way, not just men. You’re normal, and just as much a woman as any other.

If you think you’re biologically a man trapped in a woman’s biological body… okay, again, I haven’t done my research so maybe I’m just stupid, but that sounds legitimately delusional. Daniel’s mention of actual biographical makeups of the brain of these people might hold some water and put that idea in its place, but I haven’t done that research. With the information I have right now, that’s the equivalent of me saying I’m supposed to be a hedgehog.

#7

@(rot)(fodder I thought my view was controversial… though that’s only a snippet on how I really feel about the entire fiasco known as Identity Politics, I didn’t want to get to the nitty gritty and be too offensive, so I trimmed it down.

I agree with transgenderism being a mental state and it being an imaginary issue like the “gender wage gap” in the United States.

That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Hatred for gay people or any person for what they are will always exist, you can’t farm it out of society, it’ll always exist on the fringe. Sexism also isn’t as large of a problem as millennials think it is, yes it does exist, but it isn’t as wide spread as they’re claiming. Essentially, the issue DOES exist, but it isn’t as wide spread as they’re claiming it is.

Edit: If you were trying to iterate something other than what I thought you said, then you should explain a little further.

Edit #2: It occurs to me that I wasn’t entirely clear: 9 times out of 10 transgenderism will always be a purely mental issue. Having a troubled background/history and having that feeling reinforced over the years can hammer that into a persons mental state and even change their brain chemistry later down the line. Sometimes it could be a hormonal imbalance, but that’s a whole other can of worms.

#8

Crypt just said exactly what I am trying to get at.

And yes, gender identity really affects people, but the only reason that is true is because people believed it could. It’s a self made issue, it didn’t exist until someone said it did.

#9

Yes, there’s no arguing that it genuinely affects people. It’s just ridiculous that it’s an issue because it really shouldn’t be.

#10

I think we can all agree on that. It’s just apart of the times, I also think it shouldn’t even be an issue either. Yet here we are.

#11

That actually don’t make sense. The physical brain is different in transgender people than their cisgender counterparts. And there appears to be other differences as well.

It’s NOT a mental state, though. It’s a physical state.

Oh, you’d have to go a long way to offend me.

Also:
“extra-retarded”
“insecure idget”
“fucktard”
These are all terms you used directly out of the gate to describe transgender people. How should people respond to this? How would YOU respond to these terms being applied to you?

#12

So I’m an asshole. Moving on.

Of course their brains are different, they use them differently. Okay, let us go back to the starting question, we will work out way up through this.

What would gender identity be, if we didn’t designate a mental state to a specific gender in the first place?

#13

… Must… Ignore… Grammatical… Error… Grammar… Nazi… Mode… Contained…

Anyway, these behaviors are generally routed from deep trauma, often times from childhood. It make sense that the chemistry inside of their brain would change. If you believe something long enough, your brain will eventually adapt it and make the appropriate changes. A bad thyroid would cause a hormonal imbalance for instance, or a developing male child who eventually considers themselves a girl in a guys body for whatever reason. In some ways it is similar to addiction.

Over a long time of exposure, a substance can change your brain chemistry, in a similar way, if you believe something long enough, your brain will change its chemistry gradually over time, especially if you’re still developing. You don’t truly finish growing up until about the age of 24, possibly later in some instances. In any case my point stands.

Good question.

#14

Excuse me, I find the term 'people’ to be really problematic.
I’m a gender-fluid, nonbinary, pansexual horsekin and I don’t identify as a person.*

#15

That’s a hypothetical question that cannot be answered because that would require a fundamental change in tree of life. You seem to assume that transgender is just something someone heard about from someone else they thought it was a good idea. Well, where did the first transgender person come from?

No. People are transgender even if they’ve never heard of the concept before. For example, a close family member of mine is like that, despite never prior knowing of its existence. So, where did THAT come from?

Except this did not happen with my family member. There was no trauma, “deep” or otherwise.

Transgender, in conversational English, does not apply to those identities.

#16

I said “generally,” this means its open-ended. It’s not always the case. My point still stands, it doesn’t need to be an object or a substance to change your body’s chemistry. Case and point: placebos are used consistently in medicine, and nine times out of ten unless the subject has the actual illness, their conditions improve. One can apply this to one’s mental state, eventually a physical change occurs if you believe something long enough and/or strongly enough.

I think you missed the joke Tiki was trying to get at…

#17

Now this is an interesting perspective, and one I’ll have to consider. It did not come through at all in your posts in YLYL, FYI.

#18

^ Honestly it’s because my mind flies through what I’m thinking at 100MPH and when I try to talk out what I’m thinking, it comes out as nonsense most of the time, so I’m going to try and keep my posts in here short to avoid confusion.

Okay, so I think I see where we are not seeing eye to eye here. So first off, that is EXACTLY what I am assuming, but I am talking about “transgender” the term, not the people.

I’m going to risk taking this off topic to make a point.
When you fight against the notions of racism, you are trying to disassociate stereotypes from physical features. With “Gender identity” we do the EXACT opposite. It would be retarded if we started re-designating people or making more categories for race, can you imagine meeting an African-American businessman who self identifies as “white” because he is successful? It’s complete madness, but that is how they try to deal with gender stereotypes.

#19

Except that race is a social classification that we apply according to one’s skin color. Gender identity is not skin color. It is something much more personal than that. It’s one’s own brain. And the term “transgender” is the term we use to describe that certain trait where one’s physical appearance, gender-wise, does not match their gender identity. Many people have been made aware of the term “transgender” without themselves becoming transgender (one cannot “become transgender”).

This person can self-identify as a woman even if she doesn’t act in what one my stereotypically call “female behavior”. Even the most butch, flannel-shirted, short-haired, tattooed lesbian is still a woman if she self-identifies as such. The most effeminate, metrosexual, primped and yuppified man is still a man if he self-identifies as such.

Transgender is not a state of behavior. It’s a state of mind and rests in the brain.

#20

And this is exactly why the entire concept of “Gender Identity” is rediculous.

Here, so there is no fundamental difference between whites and blacks (I agree) but you are saying there are fundamental differences between men and women. What are some of these differences?

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