OK I see it now. There’s 2 corrections you need to make in your thinking. If you do a 180 degree rotation of B against C, you need to do the following:
Rotate B’s skybox (essentially the moon) 180 degrees
Rotate the rocket scaffold in B (pole w/wires) 180 degrees
*You can rotate the rocket itself in B 180 degrees but this is irrelevant given radial symmetry
Do NOTHING w/C
For a 90 degree rotation of B against C, you need to do the following:
Rotate B’s skybox (essentially the moon) 90 degrees COUNTERCLOCKWISE
Rotate the rocket scaffold (pole w/wires) in B 90 degrees COUNTERCLOCKWISE
Rotate the area BELOW the rocket platform in B 90 degrees COUNTERCLOCKWISE (if it can be seen from C)
Possibly rotate the rocket itself in B 90 degrees COUNTERCLOCKWISE, depending on the decals
Do NOTHING w/C
Of these choices, a 90 degree rotation seems best because there’s no overlap w/Apprehension period. You can choose how you want to approach this.
This is map 1. Once the player reaches the info_landmark, they are transitioned into map 2. Info_landmark is the entity which determines WHERE the player is transitioned into map 2. They should be in the same place relative to the geometry around them in both maps.
This is map 2. Notice it’s facing a totally different direction to map 1? That is totally, 100% irrelevant. The info_landmark is in the same position relative to the reference geometry, the player will literally notice NOT A SINGLE THING. 100% seamless.
Notice that the ACTUAL ORIENTATION of the map here is irrelevant. It’s the same with OaR, and any maps on the Source engine which use transitions.
Let’s say my 2 maps form a small chapter, and we want to determine if their layouts overlap or whatever, like we do with OaR. How can we do that when the maps are supposedly facing two different ways?
Easy.
We have to use a common frame of reference to determine how the maps slot together. In this instance, it is the transitional area. The pink parallelogram shaped room, and the hallway are the frame of reference, because they’re supposed to be the common feature between both maps. The way we do this is we paste the two maps into one using the editor (as I did with OaR). We then align the common frame of reference from BOTH maps so that they overlap PERFECTLY.
So, all we have to do now is line up the frame of reference. To do this we just have to rotate map 2 by 90 degrees, and slot it in right over map 1’s identical room.
So, the frame of reference’s orientation, is the ONLY important thing here, for determining overall layout. Hopefully I’ve made that clear.
Which brings us to OaR. Remember, a frame of reference is a feature which is COMMON to both maps, thus allowing you to compare their positioning to one another. Without these there is no way to realistically determine how they relate to one another.
On B, the frame of reference TO THE C MAP is the skybox/rocket.
On C, the frame of reference TO THE B MAP is the view down into the silo.
Thus, my rotating these frames of reference 180 degrees (which is REALLY EASY TO DO), I have EFFECTIVELY rotated the C map by 180 degrees, without rotating the map itself.
Has that made things clearer?
@Wangman specifically - I can decide on 180 or 90 later, once I’ve figured out precisely how I want B1 to fit into all of this. And you’re right, rotating the C map’s frames by 180 degrees is dumb as fuck, because then I’ve just mirrored the new orientation.
That’s actually really good news. That this potentially means is that I’ll ONLY have to edit the B map. Nothing has to be done with C and A.
On a completly different topic other then map rotations, I dont think the TOW grunts in the tunnels should be implemented. In real life I find it hard to beleive that soldiers would be placing TOW missiles in small, confined tram tunnels. TOW missles are designed hardend targets (ie bunkers and tanks) not a manitance tram. To have soldiers deploy these in OaR makes no sense not even in Half-Life’s time. Thats why they should be later only on the surface to show the HECU need more firepower.
@TEXT,
Ya this is good. The problem was that I was thinking of the editor layout as the absolute orientation rather than the relative orientation which made any skybox/rocket rotation moot. In actuality, everything is relative here so the skybox/rocket is the legit indicator of orientation between B and C.
@TOW haters
Seriously what the fuck man?! In HL, the rocket marines fire armor piercing RPGs at you when they’re holding a goddamn machine gun. This nonsensical BS feature was ALREADY ported to BMS in the form of the TOW launcher and the marines ALREADY use one against you in C. I’m not proposing something radically wrong here…only one additional launcher is missing and it’s easy to put it in the E remake.
Awesome. Then it’s settled. I’m glad we sorted this out, thanks people for pushing me to work on that, even though I was reluctant. I was really grouchy yesterday so sorry about that. Mapping’s gone pretty well today, I’m on a good track here. (GET IT, ITS A RAIL JOKE BECAUSE I’M MAKING ON A RAIL).
The map’s looking great, it’s packed full of interesting content. I’m looking forward to letting this out into the wild - still aiming for Monday. The map’s design itself is bizzare in that it’s a mishmash of new, old, re-imagined, faithful, but it certainly contains something that Black Mesa was missing. My spirits have been raised a bit, actually. The orientation problem is solved. I know how to tackle it now and it shouldn’t be too complex. I’ve got a very, VERY small portion of the map to finish blocking out and then A1’s layout is finished. I’ve determined by now I may ONLY have to edit the B map, which is great, because yesterday I believed I would have to edit all 3 OaR maps. And that’s alright I guess, the B map could use a little bit of tuning here and there, which I’ll certainly give it.
I have a couple of small design issues which I’ll raise tomorrow and see if anyone can help me on. (Maxwell, I’ll also comment on your design tomorrow, promise. To make a short summary now though - it’s got some very interesting ideas which I can almost certainly assimilate!)
As for the TOW launcher, I’ll probably use 1 somewhere. It was a bit odd that they had a few of them deployed here and there throughout Black Mesa but you never actually saw anyone using one. I actually don’t know if it’s possible for Marines to use the TOW launcher though, so we’ll have to wait and see. It should be alright though.
Just to clarify - as I can’t actually remember - was it a TOW they used on C? I thought it was a Marine who fired an RPG. If it was a TOW then all is well.
I not saying text cant use another rpg marine to simulate the tow launcher guy. But it dosent make much sense to have the hecu bring a tow launcher into the tram tunnels on the first day of the BM incident. Ofcourse having another rpg guy adds to the redundency of why he dident drop it for you to pick up when he dies, and if you do decide to add him somewhere in your maps, I think you should add him in a way that doesent require getting your tram smoked XD.
Edit:
Shit I’m late to the party, that’s what I get for messing with Alien Grunt vs HECU battles when I was supposed to be getting my screenshot
The RPG disappears after he fires it, he switches to an MP5 instead. Perhaps not surprisingly, the RPG becomes an MP5 prematurely if the grunts are interrupted by something else (in this case, me spawning Alient Grunts). I have not tested if this breaks the scripted sequence.
Anyway back on topic, I personally feel like the RPG Soldier in C was the BM team’s interpretation of the Rocket Launcher from HL. Perhaps they thought it made more sense for him to actually aim at the tram instead of just shooting over it, and thus he only needs to fire once as the shot breaks the tram, and keeping the RPG might make the ambush too difficult.
Also, im not sure if you read it text in my preveious post about the commander transmission on the field radio; about moving it into C’s rpg 50 cal ambush area. Would that be possible or would that be to much modding to C?
Just stop the tram in where the rpg grunt could not see it. Walk to the battlefield and he will fire at you then switch to Mp5. There your tram is not disabled you can use it again.
If B is one of your maps, you could always make a crack in the ceiling under that area and use an info_particle_system to make a water drip for continuity purposes, as well as a nice visual effect. It also drives home the disuse of the OAR area in general, but this may be too much work for a very very small thing that no one else will notice.
Figure I’d post a quick progress report as it’s been a couple days since I last said anything.
Having solved the rotation issue, as well as the editing other maps issue (I now only need to edit B through decompilation, I can almost certainly entspy A and C), which was one helluva relief, I’ve been hard at work on A1, but it’s been going slow-ish. The map is entirely blocked out and nearly all places on the map have been detailed to an acceptable degree. The only area which is still completely barren is the part of C which comes after the bridge across the rail (post-office complex) this basically forms the last 20% of the map. Using Jessie’s extremely helpful guide, it is this area:
This area was VERY barren in HL1, which worked fine as that was the style of that game, but in Black Mesa it looks weird and I’m having trouble finding good ways to fill it which don’t seem contrived. There are basically 5 empty sections along this track - 2 on the Vort side (which are mostly filled with pipes/storage) and 3 on the HECU side. I’ve kept the layout of my version pretty much identical. I’ve just figured out that one of the “segments” on the Vort side (actually the one in the picture) could potentially be a great setting for a small security like office, very similar to the one at the beginning of BM’s A map. That style of room would fit well here. The HECU side is most likely just going to be a detailed corridor with a few optional side rooms.
The other major problem I’ve run into so far is figuring out what to do with this area:
Clearly very unfinished - but the problem arises with what to do with the blank space on the bottom left - next to the track - it’s a nice shaped area, I just can’t figure out for the life of me what to put there. I had originally planned to have a tram timetable (like the ones on Inbound) with some seating and security stuff down there, while I was designing the basic layout, but I then later scrapped that idea as it would be counter to the theme of the area. Any other ideas would be most welcome, I’ve got a bit of a creative block here.
Everything else is looking wonderful. There are only a few areas in need of further detailing - the top floor of the Office Complex (fairly straightforward), the hallways in the Office Complex (a bit more tricky). The fork during the B1 section:
and the B2 inspired room near the beginning of the map.
Everything else is pretty much in place and I can foresee myself releasing this for an alpha test in a day or two if the mapping goes well.
I’ll now address some of the things brought up by forum users, starting with the schematic drawn up by Maxwell.
Firstly, thanks for taking the time to try and draw up a section to help me creatively, I appreciate the effort. It doesn’t really have a HL1 counterpart however, and I feel that the chapter’s already going to be pretty damn long once I’ve uncut it, even without original areas. So I’m afraid that I probably won’t end up using this schematic exactly as you’ve designed it. However, that’s not to say it’s unhelpful - it has some very neat ideas which I will definitely incorporate into my design. One particular source of inspiration for me was the description of how to design the Satchel detonation scene - it’s given me a particularly neat idea for how I can implement that scene from HL1 - with a bit of a twist.
My thoughts on dynamite traps are still a bit 50/50, however. It just makes more sense in my mind for the player to see explosive crates than it does to see dynamite - it provides a sense of consistency and is much more immediately recognizable - especially considering the HECU never use dynamite ANYWHERE ELSE. I would like to incorporate Barnacles on a lift as, again, it’s another element of OaR which I think Black Mesa missed a trick on.
I can certainly incorporate some of the ideas proposed by Maxwell into my outdoor section, there are a few segments which might fit very well there. One particularly neat idea which I may use in an earlier map (perhaps even A1) is the idea of a player having the option if they like to either engage or sneak past a group of unaware HECU. I can make their decision come back to bite them DYNAMICALLY in the ass - for example the player killing the HECU could end up attracting more HECU later, or them sneaking past could result in them getting flanked by the HECU they left alive earlier. Either way the player’s getting screwed over, but it provides the neat concept that the player’s choices have dictated the later battle. I really like this idea!
I can probably implement a TOW Launcher at some point during the maps. It’ll seem a tad contrived however, because I have to make the HECU die after he fires the shot otherwise it’ll seem ridiculous, as the HECU can’t reload the TOW. The way I could avoid it seeming contrived is he could be immediately ambushed by Vorts or something like that.
Yeah, I like big Houndeye packs, but of course I’ll very carefully balance their difficulty.
Absolutely not. Not only do the Marines not have an animation for it, there’s no easy way to make them physically pick up the TOW Rockets, and having them magically reload it too would look really dumb.
The original OAR was a damn maze, and the BM was just to much cut.
I hope you can get it right, because it would be fucking awsome that one person made it perfectly in just in a few months.
That’d requiere new animations, aside from everything else. Without them it’d look dumb. It looks like too much work for a 3 second scene that can be fixed easily by killing him off.
Perhaps you could put a wye (with a dead-end on the split off, it’d appear to be solely for turning trams around) there as I proposed before. It would take up the space (maybe a bit more) and would make sense to have it there, as OAR doesn’t strangely doesn’t seem to have many means of turning trams around, if any at all.
Re tow. Just put regular marine behind the tow. After the shot revert to mp5.
Re dynamite. Dynamite’s dumb. Use c4 or other plastic explosives detonated w satchel remote. Ez to model less work to animate. Hecu are soldiers not miners. Can put c4 in 2 spots other than e. First is late d to obstruct surface tunnel. Second is pre BMs c to replace laser dynamite from hl g
Re wye. Loops allow for backtracking. Don’t need em.
Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.
