The possible need to backtrack three whole maps is definitely a problem. I rather liked the solution someone else proposed, of moving the electrified water back a map.
HERPDERP I’m so stupid!
Now I actually see the entire elevator for what it is. I thought you’d go through the bottom door, go up a level, and then continue moving on somewhere, which made me question the top door. NOW it makes sense, thank you.
Lord I question myself sometimes…
I incorrectly remembered Residue Processing having a catwalk that was with chainlink fences for walls. I might be thinking of another location somewhere in the series, I’m sure I saw it before, but I cannot recall where. That’s what I had in mind to keep you from dropping down.
Actually some do. Vorts and Alien Grunts seem to ignore most Xenians, which the Xenians do in return. Snarks will ignore Vorts and AG’s (Since AG’s are implied to be the ones deploying Snarks). Snarks happily tear away at Headcrabs and Zombies, never tried it on Houndeyes or Bullsquids. Bullsquids themselves kill Headcrabs and Zombies. Barnacles eat Headcrabs and kill Zombies, but ignore Houndeye and Vortigaunts.
But even if you kept the player from jumping down (effectively keeping these two areas in separate levels), you would still need to have the elevator in the A2 map because it’s part of the catwalk area anyways. AND you would need to include it in the transition area, which means all of the entities (read NPCs and physics objects) that appeared in that area on the A1 map have to be spawned as well. Moving the point would do him no favors; in fact it would make handling the area even worse.
Continuation Of Feedback For OaR Uncut Alpha
- I suggest relocating this wall vent to the left of the vertical red steel beam, as there’s nothing on the other side of the wall, in the utility room, to support its function. https://i.imgur.com/DUinD6o.jpg
- These black wires seem to end abruptly https://i.imgur.com/vnKKACJ.jpg. Shouldn’t they continue into the wall, as they do at the other end? https://i.imgur.com/zhglF7Z.jpg
- Move the spawn position for this skid sufficiently to the left to avoid the existing shadow anomalies. https://i.imgur.com/jSkvntb.jpg.
- This ladder looks odd positioned here https://i.imgur.com/zEOSszK.jpg. Consider giving it a purpose. Move it over to the right side below the light fixture. Change the light to be defective. Place a toolbox at the top of the ladder. Place an orange caution cone on the floor beside the ladder, to imply that the light is being repaired.
- Bullsquid bile spit texture z-fighting issue. See attached pictures 1 and 2 below.
- To match the blast door at the opposite end of this tunnel, place a red light above this one. https://i.imgur.com/O8gh17d.jpg
- Functionality wise, insert an opening in this railing, to allow easy access to this area from a tram. https://i.imgur.com/ygRXPbp.jpg
- Functionally and timing wise, I suggest having the track access status lights change at the point when the “Rail Switch Control” lever is fully engaged (all the way over to its left most position). The same concept should apply to the “Crane Control” switch, as well. The crane should not move until the switch is fully engaged.
- The following suggestions concern the crane and rail switch control room:
a) Remove one of the monitors from the desk. Redundant.
b) There are too many control panels. Remove the control panel on the right. In its place, insert the one on the left. https://i.imgur.com/Y6T9HCv.jpg. If possible, remove the left shelf that the panel was on, as it’s no longer needed. - Center this light above the tunnel entrance. https://i.imgur.com/JomW9zM.jpg
- Shazzaamm! This camera is floating in mid air. https://i.imgur.com/WDtdDOr.jpg
- Bullsquid and HECU getting too friendly and clipping through each other. https://i.imgur.com/Whv8Luk.jpg
- Should there be a handrail on the left side of these stairs? https://i.imgur.com/w2rgDEw.jpg
- I suggest removing the storage cabinet (has odd shadows, anyways) and the desk in the far corner https://i.imgur.com/ha2vEfy.jpg. Reduce the height of the bulletin board, as it seems too high (Gun racks issue again? Noooooo!).
- Consider removing this monitor. Redundant. https://i.imgur.com/hucpmyx.jpg
- I suggest removing the railing in front of these pipes, as it’s not needed. https://i.imgur.com/EuLnoxh.jpg
- There’s a texture z-fighting issue on the ceiling above the table. See attached pictures 3 and 4 below. It’s also evident on the exterior of the office, above the door https://i.imgur.com/VVrbL6p.jpg and https://i.imgur.com/w9cpR5u.jpg.
- Consider making some of these red lights defective. https://i.imgur.com/3DTTeIM.jpg
- When walking over the two displaced grates, you hear “grate-type” footsteps. When walking over the grates that are in their proper place, you hear “concrete-type” footsteps. https://i.imgur.com/aZnSTR8.jpg
- What’s holding up the shelf that the two monitors are attached to? https://i.imgur.com/Cvpe82x.jpg. For that matter, what’s holding up the table?
- As mentioned by several others, there are numerous objects that markedly impede the players movements. Some momentarily stop you from proceeding, while others fling you forward at increased speeds (the TOW yard curb comes to mind… shiver). I won’t list any additional incidents here, as I’m sure these will be addressed during your levels optimization phases.
- Concerning the lighting incorrect/inconsistent issues, in this particular instance that I reported earlier https://i.imgur.com/E86jHKI.jpg and https://i.imgur.com/fGwfnO5.jpg, I believe that the two pipes are different models, hence their different lighting. I know you’re always looking to diversify your maps, but in cases such as these, using the same models, when the option is available, would lessen the occurrences of this happening.
- I’ve noticed that there are numerous instances where desks will have a second non-functioning monitor on them. I’ve suggested removal of some of these in my feedback. There may be more instances that I neglected to notice. To help lessen your entity count and address their redundancy, purge all of them from your maps, including from some of the numerous office storage areas. I suspect you may already have this in mind to do, maybe.
- To justify the shadows for these wooden crates, re-enable the defective light above the roll-up door and disable one of the others https://i.imgur.com/mgxbDRI.jpg
- This elevator platform should be flush with the ground https://i.imgur.com/p3ZtN2o.jpg
To be continued…
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Aaaaand that completely slipped my mind. I guess we all have those moments then, don’t we? 
I still think this would do better in one of the B maps as a sort of pathway around an area, could work. I don’t want to bug too much about it, it’s a grate idea (I’m sorry), I just feel like it isn’t being used to it’s full potential in A2 due to being off the main path, in an optional area. Also, I think the grates are too thick, thin them down and remove the hazard stripes from 'em. It’d be easier to see out of. Plus, when I look at that picture, my eyes are drawn the the hazard stripes (which is what they’re meant to do), so it’s unlikely Gordon would be able to hide down there if the stripes draw the soldier’s attention to the ground constantly.
Moving the transition there won’t help at all, as .RK said. The entities would still have to exist as the transitional area, and even if they didn’t (which I probably could do with a bit of layout magic) - I’d gain about 10 entities.
I’ll add an elevator or two to the office complex, they will spice it up a bit, and I was originally planning on doing so anyway - just another plan which got lost on the way. The only issue is location, there’s nowhere really good for them. I’ll think of something.
The window in the conference room actually mustn’t be opened, nice as that sounds. The magic of that section works in that you can’t see that area without passing through the script which triggers the storage room fight. In addition you’d be able to see the prefight vorts/HECU who are in that hallway, which would look seriously dumb.
I have no idea what the hell those blue lines are. The only thing I can think of which might link to it is a dodgy hint brush which is there, but I’ve never heard of them doing that before.
The ghost lights is from the tram’s transition, it happens if you cross the map barrier without a tram. I’m not sure how to stop them. I’ll try and reverse engineer BM’s system of preventing it - though if I recall they may actually not have a system of preventing it either. BM’s transitions are just done in such a way that a situation like that can’t arise. It’s tough to explain, if I figure out how to solve it I’ll explain it then.
It could be a anodegraphing issue, though not directly related to nodegraphing. I don’t know a great deal about the AI system but I’m pretty sure that nodegraphing is independent of their LOS tests. You might be onto something with the inaccessible paths thing though. Now that I think about it, that’s a very plausible theory. I don’t know much about AI like I said, but it’s possible that their “search for path to melee” routine or whatever it may be gets stuck in a loop when there’s no path available. So what might normally look like:
Identify Enemy --> Search for Path to Melee–> Decide whether to melee or shoot --> Melee/Shoot
Might become:
Identify Enemy --> Search for path to melee --> Search for path to melee --> Search for path to melee
I will test this theory later - it seems very possible to me. There are 4 major instances I can think of where Vorts are stupid like that and sometimes end around standing there doing nothing, and they all involve inaccessible paths:
- ST Uncut C2A5H - Vorts on the rooftop by the Abrams battle have a tendency to stand there and be dumb. There is also no way for them to actually go anywhere aside from that roof.
- ST Uncut C2A5H - The ground floor Vort in the gasworks which spawns when you’re on the catwalk was also really dumb. There was also no way for him to get up to you.
- OaR Uncut C2A2A2 Converging Tracks - The Vorts on the opposite ends of the track often stand there and stare. There is no path for them to reach you.
- Oar Uncut C2A2A2 End Tracks - The Vorts by the pipes room often stand there and look dumb. There is no path for them to cross the tracks.
The common problem obviously being their inability to find a path to melee their target. However this doesn’t explain why this is only an issue sometimes. But I’ll look into it - we might be onto the answer here though. The issue would then be how to create those paths in a non contrived and clever manner. It may be possible to fool the AI into thinking it has a path by nodegraphing the tracks, which may be the best option if it is possible.
The other alternative would be a workaround which I’d made on ST Uncut, which - while DEFINITELY not pretty at all, solved a pretty big issue. On the gasworks I’d made a invisible npc_clip ramp by one of the platforms because the AI were unable to move across it without it. I could do that with the tracks to allow them to cross the tracks. It would look really stupid when they cross the tracks because it will look like they’re climbing up/down an invisible ramp (even if only for a split second), but it might be better than nothing.
That system’s in play here too, Mr Shaun37 here probably just got a bit unlucky. The method is simple. At the beginning of a fight an ai_relationship sets the Vorts/HECU to LIKE the player - treat him as an ally. Every individual soldier/vort has been modified with the output - OnDamagedByPlayer Set Relationship to Hate !player 100. This means if the player does ANYTHING to damage that unit, they’ll turn on him. The ai_relationship also reverts after approximately 7 - 9 seconds, which means that it’s practically impossible for the fight to finish and the AI to still be liking the player. Shaun37 probably just got a bit unlucky with his playthrough. I think it’s a pretty neat system - and I think it certainly works better than Black Mesa’s method of simply putting the units all together and leaving it to play on its own.
While I, as always, appreciate your dedication to providing copious absurdly detailed feedback - there is one thing I will ask you.
I would ask you very kindly, if you could stop pointing out VERY MINUTE differences in prop lighting. It’s a tad aggravating to read, and it detracts from your other, perfectly valid criticisms and flaws. The props aren’t different colours or anything like that -they’re lit differently, and it’s a flaw with the way the Source engine handles prop lighting which I can do literally nothing about. I’ll explain.
OF COURSE I don’t expect you to know the ins and outs of Source Engine lighting. I don’t know a great deal either. I’ll share with you what I know so that in future it can be avoided. Lighting in the Source engine is generally handled via what’s called a lightmap. The lightmap is created by VRAD during the compile process, where VRAD figures out the way the lighting on the map should look - it’s totally static and is referred to as “prebaked”. A lightmap is, in very simple terms - a lighting texture which is overlaid onto every texture on the map. The mapper has a large amount of control over the way lightmaps behave - which strongly affects optimization and the look of lighting on the maps.
Source handles prop/model lighting very differently. Props are vertex lit. Lighting is sampled from a “point” known as their origin and the lighting sample is applied, per vertex, to the entire prop. There’s far less detail in this lighting method than lightmapping and it produces inaccuracies - but it’s also SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than lightmapping, which enables mappers to use very large numbers of props.
Take this picture for example:
Look at the shadow on the wall above the lockers - which is lightmapped. See how there’s a very smooth lighting gradient as you move away from the light? It gradually gets darker as it moves away from the light, as you would expect. The lockers, as props, are vertex lit. You can see they’re split into segments of 4 - each one being its own prop. The origin for each prop is located in the dead center at the bottom. Source samples the lighting from that point, and then applies it to the entire model, per vertex. Notice how each of the 3 segments is differently lit, yet uniform across the 4 lockers the prop is comprised of? That’s the weakness of vertex lighting - and that’s also something I can do absolutely nothing about. I could address it via proxy - by modifying the lighting of the room - but if I wanted to address every instance where this type of lighting anomaly occurred the maps would end up being fullbright anyway.
Of course - serious instances where this occurs - for example with props being very dark compared to the ones they’re next to - should be mentioned, as I can move the origins to a better location to make the samples closer together at the very least - but the very minute ones are not of concern, nor can I really do much about them. And also - physics props are beyond my jurisdiction too. Lighting on them is TOTALLY down to the engine. Gameplay events (such as bullsquid spit) are also totally down to the engine.
Hopefully I’ve cleared that up. Thanks for your understanding, and of course, for the feedback - though I still have nightmares about ST Uncut!
You say that - but it’s in a FAR, FAR, FAR more prominent location than it was in HL1, where it was a tiny opening tucked behind a staircase underneath some boxes. I always thought I went too far with making it obvious. I’m not sure it’s fair to say that it isn’t living up to its full potential because it’s off the main path, when it’s far more on the main path than it was in HL1. I haven’t heard anyone else complain about it, either.
Oh, by the way, the mod should probably prevent disabling the dead man’s switch. Because otherwise, players could send their trams past the electrified water with no rider. The only alternative I could see is adding some kind of element that’s basically a second dead man’s switch that only applies to the area around the electrified water, and I can’t really think of a justification for that.
Anything I can do to help, the clip ramps are a hell of a lot better of an idea than the boards. Wouldn’t be a readily noticeable detail in the heat of combat.
Also: The routine would actually be: Idle --> Target? no, heartbeat (do another scan) --> Idle again --> Target? Yes, delay 0.3 seconds then engage (idle to alert) --> Shoot? Yes --> Clear path for melee? No --> Clear path for melee? No.
And it continues to loop. If it had a clear path, it would basically continue afterward with: Close in if path is clear --> In Melee Range? No --> Shoot timer at 0? Yes --> Shoot? Yes --> Clear path? Yes --> Close in --> In Melee Range? Yes --> Melee? Yes… you get the jist of it. Same thing, just different executions. lol
I played a fuckload with Diablo II’s AI and actually programmed a few into NWN2. It’s not an easy thing to do, but once you get the hang of it it’s basically teaching the dumbest child you’ve ever seen to do things like walk, talk, shoot, that sort.
Edit: And if you do manage to fix the AI for ST-Uncut, think you can release that too? 
I kid. Your time’s better spent elsewhere.
The tram does, and it’s enabled by default, hop off the tram while you’re chooing along, you’ll notice it break and come to a halt.
Yeah, what I’m saying is, a valid option that can be changed on the options menu can make the game unwinnable in this mod.
Yeah, you’re probably right. I remember it as being part of the path but thinking back, maybe that’s just the path I took every time, inflating its importance in my mind.
My point about the thickness and eye-catchyness of the grates is still valid though imo.
I thought the glow looked alright on all the lights with the exception of the flickering one in the side room at the beginning of A1. It may look better if it only flickers up to half brightness or something.
In other news, this microwave door completely detaches. Is that supposed to happen?
Text, the area I mentioned for the elevators, won’t it work? The area on the second floor with the two toilet rooms given that all the doors and windows are static. It is a little impractical given that there’s a cafeteria below and I don’t think the main lobby will have the toilets, but with a few alterations like moving the toilets to another place on the second floor (like in the locker room area) and closing the gap in the floor overlooking the cafeteria. Then I think it will be a very optional place to place two elevators and it’s close to the stairs so it’s practical and that area will have a unique look and add some diversity to the office complex and second floor. Talking of which, there’s no toilets on the bottom floor. Maybe half the scale of the toilets on the second floor and add them to the locker room and then the other half you can add to the locker room on the bottom floor. OR you could place the elevators in the area next to the room being renovated.
Mr. Someguy, in post #803 you quoted me incorrectly. I didn’t talk about the catwalks and the aliens not attacking each other. Just mentioning it 
P.S. OaR was my least favorite chapter in HL1 but in BM with the Text’s uncut it now is becoming one of my favorite. Congrats!!!
Thanks for taking the time to provide a detailed explanation of the Source engine’s lighting capabilities and limitations.
The intentions of my feedback, for the most part, is to bring to light visual anomalies that break or interfere with the immersion factor of the map/level. In some instances, I’m never quite sure if it’s an oversight on your part or the way the Devs built BM or a limitation of the Source engine. My adage has always been, and will continue to be, to report something that doesn’t seem right and have you determine if it’s fixable or not.
In ST Uncut, there were several instances where your initial comments on feedback I provided were along the lines of “I’ll try, but probably not” or “Can’t be fixed” or “I’ll look into it”. Then, blam, in a subsequent beta release, problems that I didn’t expect to be fixed were fixed. Sparks passing through walls/floors (except for one instance) and odd lighting on the double-doors in the Garg tunnel come immediately to mind. To that end, I was hoping that you could work some of the same magic on items that are exhibiting lighting related problems within OaR Uncut.
I’m fully dedicated to helping you reach your development goals concerning OaR Uncut, as I was with ST Uncut. Don’t take my feedback as a negative comment on your work. Take it, as I’m sure you do, as constructive criticism. I respect you, your dedication and your integrity. However, you’re one person and you’ve got a LOT on your plate, not to mention real life responsibilities. It’s understandable that with so many things on the go that things may get overlooked or forgotten. You’ve said so yourself on several occasions. Whether it’s a case where you neglected to check-off a feature box in the map editor or another similar oversight, I have no way of telling. So I’ll keep giving you my feedback, so that your “nellies” are never quite comfortable, and I’ll shy away from lighting related issues as best I can. I’ll leave those to your trained and experienced eye to catch and correct, so be on the lookout for them.
I (we) have every confidence in your capabilities. You’ve WOWED us and proved time and time again that you’re up to the monumental tasks you’ve undertaken. We’ve all really enjoyed the ride you took us on with ST Uncut and the ride you’re presently taking us on with OaR Uncut. Rest assured, I’ve (we’ve) got your back!
Hrm. I’m pretty sure there’s no way I can make players do that, aside from telling people to make sure they have that option enabled in the menu.
I will probably have to play around with the way that area is designed at some point - you’re right, it is an issue. I’ll also try my best to find a way to address the backtracking issue simultaneously.
My concern isn’t the A maps currently, though of course all the feedback here is insanely useful for when I go back to them. I’m doing the B maps currently - though I’ve only started working on them again today. The mad drive to get the A maps released for alpha really seriously burned me out for mapping, so I’ve been taking a break. I’m back at the mapping table today though, proverbially speaking.
When I get around to trying to fix it, the first thing I will do is the invisible npc ramps, even if they’re just for testing purposes. I do now have a very strong feeling we’ve established the root of the problem, and this might actually be a simpleish fix.
Yeah, you may be right. I’ll have a play around with it when I get the chance and see what comes of it.
Uh, I don’t know. I’ll check how it works on BM’s B map and make them consistent. I think they are, but I’m not 100%.
Uh, the problem with that is, as you said, the gap in the floor underneath those rooms. That would require a pretty severe layout reshuffle to implement. With a LITTLE bit of layout magic, I might be able to place an elevator in between the window and the double doors to the right of the rooms you pointed out (obviously removing the rooms beforehand). On the cafeteria floor I could then replace the poster/light combination with an elevator door.
The locker rooms is the other ideal place for it, but it ain’t going there. I like the locker rooms and where they are currently. I’ll also put an elevator on the blank wall in the hallway that one of the HECU guys comes towards you from in the security office. That’s a good place for one.
Alright, cheers Dadster. I’m very glad to have you on my side. I’ve said it many times before, but I’ve never known anyone to be so infuriatingly detailed in their observations about flaws with mapping. It’s maddening, but in a really good way. Feel free to point out anything you feel is wrong - I was just saying all that to try and reduce both of our workloads! I know you understand.
Hey Text, not to bother, but I just had a very strange bug while moving through A1. As I was wondering around near the crossing, my frames suddenly dropped extremely low. Then out of nowhere the ragdoll of an HECU is launched into the wall near me with incredible force. Curious I wonder into the room, where I see several props spazzing out incredibly violently. These include the red utility shelf, the white cart machine (between the computer and stand), the harddrive (which was on the cart machine), 2 bullsquid ragdolls, and an HECU ragdoll. By the time I took a picture, one of the Bullsquids and the HECU ragdoll had exploded, and the white console cart + harddrive had come to a rest. A few seconds after that picture was taken, the red utility cart launched itself across the room and came to rest atop the red pipe in the back, and the bullsquid just sorta fell over and stopped moving. I’ve noticed strange physics anomolies in this room once before occasions (it didn’t seem worth reporting, just the white cart rattling a bit and ‘splitting’ the harddrive out a few meters infront of itself) but the rate at which they happen (even happened twice in your demo video) I think I can say something must wrong with that room.
Aside from that, I also got stuck between these pipes and was unable to get out (you just sorta float from side-to-side), and the curves on [urlhttps://puu.sh/22mrz]these pipes[/url] make the ‘plastic’ sound when hit.
Last, I was wondering if you could fix this floating fountain in Black Mesa’s A (assuming you’ve already had to edit the A map). It’s located beside the lift bridge where the final Vortigaunt teleports in. I’m not sure if you consider that part of your department or not, since it’s a BM devs mistake and not yours.
Oh, last second suggestion! You could make the HECU reinforcement squad arrive in the Elevator when you hit the gate button 
Heh. The only reason I can think of that physics might act weirdly in that room is if I placed a physics prop slightly in the ground with the “start asleep” flag checked. This could cause some really weird behaviour when a force is exerted upon the prop. That’s all I can think of - there’s no other reason to my knowledge that one particular room could have weird physics.
It could be that weird Black Mesa bug that you can get sometimes. I’ve had it a few times - where physics just decides to go on a vacation. If it happens again, try firing an RPG. If the RPG goes all spazzy and never detonates, then it’s a game bug. It happens on stock maps sometimes too, and requires a game restart.
Otherwise, I’ll try and narrow it down when I get back to editing the A maps. I’m currently working on the ambush room in B1 - it’s tricky business!
I’ll also fix getting stuck in the pipes with a simple playerclip, or I might move em apart a bit. Easy fix. Cheers for pointing it out.
I can’t fix the problem on A. I have no issue fixing dev errors but I used entspy to modify A rather than decompiling it. All I did was change the trigger changelevel from “BM_C2A2B” to “BM_C2A2A1”. This avoided all the hard work and inaccuracies that come from decompiliation - but also means I can’t fix anything on that map.
As for the elevator idea, that’s really neat. Will definitely try that.
Strange. If it keeps happening and you can’t rule it out, you could just make them into static props, they’re large enough to be anyway. That might fix it.
May I ask how the ambush is coming along? That’s one of the parts I’m most interested in
The problem on A is no big deal. I wasn’t sure if you decompiled A or not, so I figured it wouldn’t hurt to ask about it.
Glad to hear you like the elevator idea, I think it can work much more nicely than soldiers appearing from thin air right outside (at least the vorts have an excuse to do this!).
I’m looking forward to your progress, but take it easy, you don’t wanna turn this into a chore like you almost did with STU :fffuuu:
Oh, I’ve pretty much just started on the ambush room itself, so it hasn’t come along far yet at all. I pretty much wanna keep the room itself true to HL1, except expanded a bit vertically. HL1’s room had really nice architecture and was very memorable for it. I’m actually currently working on the tunnels leading up to that room, which are a pain in the ass - almost certainly moreso than the room itself. Black Mesa’s tunnels and turns are so vastly different from HL1’s it’s a bit difficult to wrap your head around the more complicated architecture at times - but this is in a good way, because they do look vastly better.
And I wouldn’t worry about me taking it easy. I’d like to think I’m a person who can learn from the mistakes of the past. I worked too hard on ST Uncut and by the end I was indeed burning out. I’m quite happy to take breaks from this project when I feel like it - I just started mapping again after a 2 day break. It feels a lot better, actually.
If you are going to put elevators, you should add explosive boxes to one of them, like in the original.
(hey, nice work with all the mapping, I’ve been following this a lot of time but I’ve never had anything relevant to say, )