I think it is a better idea. HECU going out of their way to feed people to bullsquid seems a bit uncharacteristic - and tbh, they haven’t been here long enough + they have more pressing issues rather than fucking around like this.
They did replicate Half Life and cause of the engine limits, it was not possible in HL1, I don’t think HL1 did need physic puzzles/events. HL2 i
has a more advanced engine with the possibility of physics…
To your concern, I found a crane model (if that’s a model indeed) in Lambda Reactor’s first map bm_c3a2a, in the great warehouse with the female assassins. Still, such model would have the layout of the train yard changed a bit, but see for yourself:
You’ll just have to make the yellow support structure going over one of the tracks, maybe have a container hanging from it. But if you want to keep the old HL2 model, go for it, that’s not really a big deal I guess.
Considering you went through all that OaR initially showed in terms of puzzle, it’s hard to think of a replacement. :
Maybe you can just choose to not put any kind of puzzle here? Since it’s a loop, I don’t think it would be fair to have the player go through another difficulty.
It just hit me that If ever there was a good place to recreate the dynamite scene it’s in that cave tunnel. It’s really a shame we don’t have any dynamite models or a proper detonator because you could make it look like the marines simply improvised a trap with what was already laying around the area. Also I wouldn’t mind seeing that area expanded a bit. It’s really a nice setting, but after watching that part of the video again it seems to be very short. Could one of the two doors in the area lead to another room?
As for the filler for the empty road maybe you could have a communications tent along side it with one of the military radios. This is a pretty huge section and it seems like a logical staging area for their efforts. I think it would make sense to have a tent similar to the one used in STuncut (where the osprey gets destroyed) with crates, the radio and maybe a map. Something simple, but reasonable. Possibly move an M35 close to it or even a Humvee. Maybe have a dead squad leader nearby.
I’m copying my post from OaR’s ModDB page. I’m sorry if I post ideas that have already been addressed but there’s A LOT of comments in this thread and there’s no easy way to sort them out. Might I suggest making a separate thread for ideas and critiques on specific maps in OaR? It would help organize and clean things up.
"Figure I’d give my 2 cents as well. Let me start first by saying congratulations on graduating, and thank you so much for your continued work on the Black Mesa mod! Now, to the critiques:
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This is actually just a question. You made the point that your reaching your limits for these maps and having to cut some very interesting ideas out. But couldn’t you just make your map into two maps to allow for more details and content? I would prefer having an extra loading screen for more content and details in the maps.
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The models you’re using for the workers are a great idea, but I saw one that looked like a scientist model just painted orange. He even had an orange tie. Nobody where’s an orange tie, that’s just ugly
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The music that comes in when you go outside is fair enough, but imo it cuts off too early. I suggest making it longer. If, however, you decide to add more action to this section, I’d suggest changing it entirely. I can’t help but think that in that case something sounding similar to The Thing’s Theme would sound good. A deep simple bass line like that would create a perfect atmosphere to combat a squad or two of soldiers. Which brings me to my next point:
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You should add some more action. Nothing really large like in Surface Tension, but maybe a squad or two of soldiers would be nice. It seems weird that such an open space is almost void of soldiers, while the interior spaces seem to be almost crawling with them. It seems like that area would make a perfect area to set up camp and expand from for the soldiers. Perhaps making the control booth a larger building or adding a couple smaller ones would help add more cover and better flow for the combat.
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The cave is wonderful, but it seems odd that the giant doors are just left open. I think it would be a cool idea to have them closed off with aliens trapped inside. The soldiers closed the cave because it was filled with them, or maybe they were waiting for reinforcements to help clear it out. My thoughts are that if the doors were open the aliens would simply walk out and expand, not group up in the cave waiting for no reason. Who knows, maybe a Gargantua was locked in there? Food for thought.
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If it’s possible, why not make the crane more important? If the crane can be made to be used like it was in HL2, why not use it to help clear something from your path or open a new area? I realize that could simply be too much work or just not possible, but if it could be implemented it would give the player more time to spend in the area, doing something unique to the map, and a further rest from combat.
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Add more detail. I’ve already touched on this in my first point but some areas seem to be lacking detail or character. It you could find a way to get past the limits of these maps and add more to them, it’d go a long way.
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You seem confident that the skirmish between the grunts and the guards is completely one-sided, but unless you add some usefulness to the guards, make absolutely sure they lose. Make sure that if you turn the game to easy difficulty and rush in to save the guards at all costs guns blazing you still can’t save them. Also it seemed in the video that the guards were attacking the grunts, not the other way around. The grunts had the higher ground, larger numbers, and bigger guns. If I was a guard I’d be taking cover not charging at them. It would make more sense if the guards were being attacked against the wall, perhaps behind more cover.
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It would be nice if the broken tram would fall if the player jumped on it like you did. As you said, it’s barely hanging on.
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The sniper might be better placed somewhere closer to the center of the outside area, possibly in a guard tower near the control booth. This way he’s pinning you down and forcing you to use the cover around the whole map.
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The guard with the turret just outside the ‘zombie ambush’ seems a bit too close. It might be better to put it further down around the corner like it was in the original so the player doesn’t get chewed up climbing through the window.
I know it seems like I’m bashing your map, but you really have done fantastic work. As much as I’m sure you’d like to be done with it, and you certainly could be, it would benefit greatly from some more time and work. Great job, and I can’t wait to see the final release!!!"
Please give some input on my ideas. I know they aren’t all reasonable but it’d be nice to hear back from anyone about their ideas on them.
I like those ideas… going to check the vid today…
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I will refresh the idea i had… Locked room you can open from outside (thuds against door) a room full of headcrabs and scientist zombies… Like the HECU locked them in there and the headcrabs had the final say.
The switch to progress is in this room… This could be a puzzle of sorts.
And my last suggestion is death by crate stealh kill a HECU by switch or by shooting out a winch / magnet release button.
With achievement 'have a crate day!" perhaps this could be a better way to get rid of the first sniper?
Edit
Just saw the Video and it looks great… But feels a bit weird at the mo. That guard way off in the tower???
If you go for a deserted feel that is fine… But it is a bit uneven in terms of encounters… If you are running close to limit theres nothing wrong with making the place feel a bit spooky… I suggest add more snipers less soldiers it will make it work better… Treat it as a training yard for how to deal with snipers? no pun intended.
Also there is no ambient noise… Would it be possible to add the cricket sound effects here randomly
Links to where some of your points were already addressed:
Splitting maps - https://forums.blackmesasource.com/showpost.php?p=552451&postcount=1508 (search “Map transitions”)
The sniper - https://forums.blackmesasource.com/showpost.php?p=552503&postcount=1526
Okay, I’ll rephrase what I said. It’s doable, but an INSANE BALLS amount of work for relatively little reward. It’ll either look really mediocre and still have used up a large portion of my time, or will look good after days of work, which could have been much better spent doing actually useful stuff.
I just thought it was easier to say it couldn’t be done.
No, sadly. It’s part of the model.
No. Though Source 2007 Combine had the input ThrowGrenadeAtTarget, which would allow the mapper to script this, the HECU for some reason do not. This was the initial reason I swapped the Marines throwing the grenade at you on C2A5G in ST Uncut for the staged explosive ambush like I did.
Yeah, you’re right. The more I’ve thought about it, the more it seems like just a mediocre if not outright bad idea, so I’ll change it. It can be repurposed though simply by me just removing the message entirely and putting a different message somewhere else. Then it could seem like the Scientists/Guards were hiding in the container and a Bullsquid teleported in and they met a grizzly end, or a story similar to that. Again, I like leaving some details up to the player’s imagination!
When you put it like this, it’s actually a very compelling argument, and I can’t think of anything to say against it really. I’ll see if there’s a good way to implement this.
This is kinda the way I see it too. Physics puzzles are more of a HL2 thing. That’s not to say we can’t have cool physics stuff in Black Mesa, but it just feels a bit more out of place in Black Mesa.
The dynamite scene has already been recreated in spirit on B1, where they blow up the ceiling to block access to the rocket. Because there’s no dynamite or detonator models I used satchel charges.
As for adding more parts to the cave tunnel/other parts of the map, absolutely not. Remember guys, I’m on the limits. Additional areas/structures are a no-no, unless I remove other stuff, something I’m not particularly willing to do.
Discussion of the B2 release started on page 76. It’d take about 10 minutes to read through all of it and be perfectly up to date with all the information.
That aside, I’ll address your feedback points.
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Targ linked you to my comments on this. There’s no good way to split the map. Source limitation.
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They’re not meant to have ties, I was just lazy and didn’t bodygroup them properly. It will be fixed for alpha release.
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The long (default) version of Dark Skies is perfect for this scene, even if there is action. If I manage to release the alpha tomorrow which I’m very much hoping to, you’ll see. I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t win everyone over.
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Already happening. Won’t add anymore buildings though, there are enough.
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While I agree with your logical principle here, from a gameplay perspective it’s an unnecessary and frustrating obstacle which prevents the player from going round in circles. Going around on the loop is already frustrating enough, it doesn’t really make sense to further impede their already stalled progress. When you go in there, the fight may have only just finished, for all we know.
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This has been discussed a fair bit, and won’t happen. There is no crane entity in Black Mesa’s FGD, so it can’t physically be done. Even if it could, it’s way too much work and entities for relatively little reward anyway.
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There are no ways around Source’s limits. There simply aren’t, especially not when I’m hitting BOTH the entity and brush limits. It’s an inescapable limit. Plus you have to think about optimization. The outdoor area is extremely open, which hurts optimization because there are many things to render simultaneously, and cannot be hidden by buildings or angles because of the open nature. Packing tonnes of detail into every area just makes the problem exponentially worse. I’ve made everywhere sufficiently detailed. It’s not hyper detailed like most of Black Mesa, but it’s certainly at a good standard. I can’t do much more than that, even if I’d like to. The one place I am adding more detail to is the very first open area, which was very empty before.
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This has been discussed a lot. Someguy’s tests and my own both found that the security guards are about 100X better than the HECU. They’re insanely better than the HECU. This is presumably because the HECU are meant to be a numerous foe, while the security guards are rare companions who need to be useful. The current fight is 4 Guards vs 8 HECU, with the Guards all on 5 / 40 health. It’s still pretty close, despite that. That says it all, really. The Guards charging the soldiers is just another way to ensure their death. You could explain it logically by pointing out that the guards are amateurs in comparison to the HECU, they’re just being stupid in this particular skirmish.
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Will do, but only if the entity limits allow. This is a low priority.
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The Sniper has been scrapped.
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The Zombie “wakes up” about 2 seconds after being triggered, and takes another 2 - 3 to stand up, while also making a lot of noise in the process. In all honesty, if the player gets “chewed up” by that, they had enough warning.
I hope this is sufficient.
More Snipers isn’t a good idea. It just isn’t really the best place for them.
As for ambient noise, there’s PLENTY of ambient noise. You can’t hear it too well on the video because the game volume is turned way down so you can hear my voice.
Ooh I like this idea. You could have it here (with my idea of having all the crates in a line). Maybe even extended over the train loading bay, although you’d have to get rid of the roof and wires for that, and I kinda like those… Maybe have a ‘roof’ over the top end of the crane instead.
Imo dead infantrymen wouldn’t make sense here. It’s calm, they wouldn’t just leave their own bodies laying around, they’d bag 'em.
I’m not Text, but I can answer what was already said by him, or what I know.
- He already cut some extras that net him +200 entity limits, cutting the map may not be necessary.
- The worker model is a guard, not a scientist. I agree about removing the tie though, that’s just a side-effect of using the guard model and not needed for this guy.
- He already swapped the music for an extended piece, over twice as long.
- He moved the HECU Gun from the tunnel to the building platform near the end of the ramp. There might be other stuff but I can’t say for certain.
- The entity for the crane was removed by the Devs, regardless, he said he feels that would be gimmicky and would not do it anyway.
- Sniper is gone.
- See 4.
One more idea for puzzles…
Use a dynamic prop fork lift as an elevator to gain access to an otherwise unreachable platform up higher.
Although it would need to be made a bit obvious with a light on the switch.
Button release for a container + phy constraint for that… HECU underneath = fun
Trying to think of a way you could replace the missile launcher.
rpg and grenades are out, and you said teh tow launcher had problems…
think you can get some one to make a custom turret? or is that not possible, if it is that might work.
also, in my opinion the dirt cave is out of place, it really has no purpose there… unless you put a tram path with a locked down elevator to explain it, it seems out of place. also with everything else full built I would thing that area would have to be new construction to be exposed like that so would need construction equipment around it.
On the idea of having a hecu that triggers an alarm for reinforcements; could that be made an essential part of the game? I was thinking put a hecu in the tunnel with the vorts, he calls for reinforcements before being killed, and they burst out of the room with the controls to get to the next area (which would be locked until this point). This would make it so the player is required to go around the loop at least once.
Inbound had caves like that though, that’s what this is based off.
but the inbound one isn’t near a large cargo station.
So there can’t be an industrial park next to a cave? Why not?
Wait, if the tow is being scrapped in B2 for not working, does that mean the tow in B1 is scrapped as well?
Yeah, the TOW in B1 was scrapped because it wouldn’t cooperate. The problem was the soldier manning it never ‘aimed’ the TOW, he swung it around as part of his idle animation, but he never stopped to aim before shooting. This lead to times where he’d be idle, aim it at the wall next to him, spot you, and blow himself up.
sort of hackish but can’t you replace them with the MG turrets, and modify them to fire slower and shot rockets… but that would require a separate entity for them as well as a new model. (yeah never mind)
I like the idea, but just ordinary turrets would do the job. They have to be well placed, otherwise they’d be really annoying.
This!!
Also i have one more idea, concerning the oar A-maps: No offense against you textfamguy, you did more than awesome work, but i dont like this crane/control room at all. It looks somehow very ugly and wrong. please rework it…
…and try to change the crane of the room with the one in the picture below: