No, he didn’t. But I’ve fully credited him and I’ve seen members of the dev team checking up on ST Uncut on a regular basis - if they had any objections to me using it, I’d imagine that they’d have voiced them by now. Besides, the CCL doesn’t (as far as I’m aware!) require permission, only attribution, which, as I said, I do give. Though it is a “cut” track, I do assume the same rules still apply, and I haven’t seen them taking action against it being used elsewhere either.
Maybe, maybe not. If it is possible I’m still probably not going to do it, it will be an AWFUL lot of work for something I really personally care nothing about.
The 2nd issue is actually very important for level design because unlike most of the other chapters, which are essentially linear, OaR is a spiral so everything does need to line up properly for the loop to lead back to the rocket. This was CLEARLY an important issue for the OaR dev as he made everything fit perfectly so I think you should try to emulate this as well for an elegant redesign. By building all of HL late D-early G using the end of BMS’ B and the beginning of C as a reference, everything will make sense spatially and it should allow you to easily cut your remade map in half should the need arise. I really think you should keep to the 2 map plan…with it, OaR would only be 6 maps whereas ST w/uncut is a total of 9 maps. There will be no tedium as there’s so many interesting scripts etc. to put in these maps. It’s only limited by your imagination.
W.r.t. the BMS B and C maps, there’s really only a few pieces of information that you need to know for a spatially correct remake: 1) the segment from the rocket to the end of B 2) the segment from the beginning of C to the rocket 3) the vertical distance between these two segments. You may not need to import the BMS maps into the editor…you could perhaps make a crude but proportionally accurate mockup of these regions for reference.
I’ve made my stance clear on the 2 map thing. Drop it. It’s really starting to piss me off. It doesn’t need to be discussed any further, I don’t appreciate being pushed to do more work when I don’t think it’s necessary. I can almost certainly fit all the important missing OaR elements into 1 map the size of A1 currently, without much issue at all. If it becomes necessary I will change my stance, but until then, no. I’m not “limited by my imagination,” I’m limited by time, university, real life, existing designs, player wants/desires. Lots of people didn’t like the original OaR SIMPLY BECAUSE it was too long. It’s been stated plenty of times in the discussion I’ve seen about OaR. It doesn’t matter if ST with Uncut was 9 maps long, because ST was the climax of the game and has a wonderful variety in encounters and environments. There’s only so much variety you can put into OaR. I’ve only seen 1 or 2 people object to ST being too long, but I’ve seen hosts of people object to OaR for being overdrawn. And I agree with them, it was longer than it needed to be. I’ve said this as well. The BM Devs went too far, I’m trying to go for 75 - 80% of the original length where they went for 40%. And I’m hoping that the 20% that I cut out will be pointless/poorly designed filler anyway.
The OaR Dev had the luxury of being able to account for the pieces fitting together in his design. I do not, I’m building around an existing, unmodifiable layout. I have said this before too. I will do my best to make my designs fit in neatly, but I am not going out of my way (read: creating a large amount of unnecessary work) to make things fit together perfectly. I can probably already fit in my maps to a reasonable degree without doing much, and that suits me just fine.
In other words, as I have repeated many times now - I will do what I can. I’m bound by a LOT more limitations on this project than I was for ST Uncut, unfortunately that’s just the way it is. I’m sorry if some people won’t like that, but that’s just how it is I’m afraid.
You say you’re limited by player wants/desires. I’d like to put my hat in as a player who very much wants the maps to line up. Maps that individually make sense but don’t make sense together have always bugged me; one of my favorite parts of Black Mesa was how they revised the cliffside area so that the maps don’t overlap with each other. Since Black Mesa has already made these maps sensibly line up, it seems like intentionally making them not line up is just wasting work senselessly, which would be sad, because I was really looking forward to this as one of the final pieces of a good Black Mesa.
I think it’d be pretty noticeable to go from the rocket, in a straight line, and arrive back at the rocket. All it would take to make sure that doesn’t happen is a little planning ahead.
Hopefully you’ll be able to find ways to bring back some of the old things into these sections so they don’t end up feeling like altogether new creations (especially the outdoor part). You did an excellent job of doing that in ST:Uncut so I don’t think it will be too much of an issue once things start to take shape.
Which part of the tow launcher mounting marines would be hard to recreate? Is it just because of the long hallways of track or more of an issue with actually scripting it out so they shoot multiple rockets at you as you come? The marine shooting your tram once with a rocket is a little anti-climatic in black mesa. Maybe you could substitute these encounters by having a marine or two with a rocket launcher that shoot at you at some point.
Also what’s the final say on implementing the sections under the rocket seen in HL:C2A2B2 or even anything from that map? After taking a look at the rocket ‘priming’ section in BM: C2A2B it seems you could very logically add a room down there. There’s even a ladder leading down to the nothingness that’s blocked off by a locked grate. This would mean having to edit the BM:C2A2B map such that the basic layout of the added room can be seen under the rocket when on the bottom floor. This would actually be an improvement because currently it’s just black nothingness and looks a bit odd. However, if BM:C2A2B
isn’t a map you’re already planning on having to recompile then it probably wouldn’t be worth it.
When I said “I’m not going to make them perfectly line up,” did you REALLY think that I was going to design it like that? You must think I’m a seriously shit mapper if that was the first thing that came to your mind when I said that.
Also “all it would take to make sure that doesn’t happen is a little planning ahead?” You’re kidding, right? If that were true, would I not have already done that? Would I really be this adverse to lining things up perfectly if only a little planning ahead were required? I’m telling you now, and I have already said this quite a few times so it’s winding me up - ITS NOT SIMPLE, OR EASY. IT IS NOT. THAT. EASY. It requires EXTENSIVE modifications to C2A2B. Even just rotating the top half of the rocket priming section is an extremely large amount of work. And the reason this is all irking me so much is I’ve already said I’ll do what needs to be done. It may not be perfect, but I’ll make it work. It’s extraordinarily difficult for it to be perfect because I’m building into an already existing framework, unlike the BM devs who were able to reshape the framework to their liking.
Firstly, I’m not “intentionally making them not line up”. That would be stupid. Why would anyone do that? There’s a difference between me actively making my own work shit, and having issues dealing with a minor problem which would require a lot of work (remember guys, it requires a lot of work) to solve.
As Dotard said, it’s hardly “wasting work senselessly,” either. Of the small amount of people who might notice that the maps don’t line up 100% perfectly, how many of them will find it totally ruins their experience? Will people say, oh, I really enjoyed these maps, but they don’t line up, so that’s all invalid now. Sure, maybe it will sour the experience just a bit, like any other bug or small problem would, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s a small issue, and it’s a tad inherent with the kind of “insert” work I’m doing anyway.
And, I guess I have to say it for the millionth time, I’m not going to make it ridiculous, illogical, and senseless. I’m going to try my best to work around it. I’ve said, very clearly - I’ll try and make the layouts make sense, but they may not line up perfectly. That’s what’s pissing me off so much about this pointless discussion. I’ve already put forth my official stance on the matter, and it seems very fair to me.
If that’s a deal breaker, don’t play it. I’m done here. I’m getting real frustrated that when I bring up real design issues which need addressing, I get ignored, but then people are focussing so much on silly little things like this which I’ve already said I’ll deal with many times before.
I’d like to think by now that you guys know me as a mapper, what I’m all about, and my ethic. It’ll be alright. Now PLEASE - move on. There are plenty of other issues that need to be worked out. I’ve had enough frustration for one day, please. I already know what to do in an ideal world (Wangman’s suggestion is by far the best way of tackling this issue), now I just need to play it by ear to find out how viable and necessary that approach is. It doesn’t need to be discussed further.
EDIT:
The TOW in Black Mesa can only fire one shot before being manually reloaded. Having them fire a single shot then not being able to do anything would be really dumb, and they have no reload animation.
As for the section under the rocket for B2, this isn’t really feasible either, due to the lining up problem that everyone’s been harping on about. This would compound it even further, as I would have to make A1 wrap around the rocket rather than be a journey towards the rocket like it currently is. I’ve recreated the rocket room in spirit on A1, if you look at my design schematic on page 8 you’ll see how I’ve gone about it.
EDIT 2: On a far more cheerful, and much less grumpy note (yeah, sorry - it’s been just an awful day and I’m STILL suffering from this chest infection I got back at Christmas and it’s making me grumpy as heck), I’ve almost finished blocking out the layout for A1! Woohoo! I’ve just passed the bridge which crosses over the tracks after the office complex. It’s turned out pretty…different to Half-Life’s version, actually, my bridge is quite small and leads to a large terrace overlooking the tracks. I could probably kit it out with some pretty cool looking stuff if I let my creativity take over. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the bridge to end up looking quite how it has, but it might work out for the best - we’ll see! At this rate I’ll have the entire map blocked out by tomorrow. Then comes the undeniably worst part of mapping ever. Sealing leaks. That’ll be 2 hours of hair pulling, anger screaming, facedesking amusement! But the reward will be pretty neat - I’ve already got most of the lighting and detailing set up so the visual quality of the map is going to absolutely skyrocket once that’s done.
I know you don’t want to hear any more of it, but if I may put in my two cents on the subject.
Most US Military Missile Silos would sometimes be placed near each-other, so they would just require one command/control center. While this isn’t the case for your maps, it would be a viable option.
That being said, it’s not farfetched to have two ICBM rocket silos near each other (say 5-10 miles apart) for your case. That kind of solves the issue of you having to edit C2A2B map, other than save changing the name and a few other tweeks.
If you still want to edit the shit out of your office complex, I would love to see you go with it themed as a re-purposed C&C center.
As for the moon, they used a Sprite (it’s 2 dimensional in the skybox on BM_C2A2B ) for it, and the rest of the skybox is nothing more than a circle of stars.
My two cents on the first issue - Honestly, I hardly would notice if OAR ran the whole length of the facility and back. As long as it’s done well, that’s really all I can ask for. Unless you’re OCD and are getting out your pen and paper, mentally examing every wall in the maps to see if it looks ‘right’ or not, I do agree that I doubt it’ll really matter in the long run.
Also the TOW launcher wouldn’t make any sense in OAR, anyway. Sure it might surprise you (assuming you didn’t play the original HL) but it wouldn’t make sense at all. You’re in an underground tram tunnel, not outside in the battlefield like in ST.
Just for the sake of it, is there anything you want an opinion or discussion on? Just small stuff since I’m not a mapper by any means so whatever you say happens I’ll generally go “ok, sure whatever” too.
You know, so long as it’s not blatantly unbelievable, I’ll be fine with the rocket not perfectly lining up.
Some day, though, I look forward to a Source 2 or 3 engine, where maps stream, and, for example, you wouldn’t just make sure that the first rocket encounter lines up with the second rocket encounter… it would literally be the same rocket, because the engine would process very large areas at the same time. And there would be outdoor vistas where you could see the rocket from a distance, and it’s not a mockup - it’s, once again, the very same rocket.
That was directed at Dotard, not at you. I didn’t mean any offense to you, you’re an amazing mapper. I should have been a bit more clear with my statements, and I apologise. You’ve done an amazing job in the past and I have no doubt you will do an amazing job here as well.
Ech, I can probably find a simple-ish way to make what we have at the moment work convincingly. As I said, it may not line up PERFECTLY, there may be a few inaccuracies here and there (such as overlapping walls/ceilings, etc.) but that would be the kinds of inaccuracy that you would literally not be able to notice without actually superimposing the maps in the editor. That’s how I’m picturing it in my mind, anyway. I can, and will, make it work. I never doubted that, I don’t really know why everyone else was.
The moon + stars are 2 separate particle effect they put in the 3d skybox. (There is a difference between particles and sprites - sprites are 2d whereas particles use 2d sprites to represent a 3d shape) It’s a very clever solution to the problem of sky elements and their positioning. I’ll remember that trick for future mapping endeavors! Theoretically speaking, provided I orient my map relative to B and C as they’re supposed to be if they were one complete map, I should just be able to copy/paste the 3d skybox from those maps and the moon/stars would match up perfectly. Theoretically, at least.
You and me both, buddy. Mapping for OaR is a headache in so many ways compared to ST Uncut. The architecture (brushwork) is extraordinarily complicated and Hammer’s inability to keep complex brushwork on the grid doesn’t help at all either. I’ve spent the past 2 hours blocking out the basic layout for the final section of HL C, and it’s done now. I have a very basic draft of the layout which is pretty close to HL1’s version - I figure it makes sense at this point to have some kind of close remake seeing as most of my A1 map is pretty damn different to HL1.
Honestly there isn’t a great deal to discuss just yet. I’m pushing hard to try and get the map finished for a Monday alpha release, though it’s totally uncertain as to how that’ll turn out. The Office Complex is looking magnificent and I’ve pretty much finished detailing the 1st floor (using the floor naming convention of Ground, 1st, 2nd, at least that’s how we do it in the UK). Once the 2nd floor is done that’s the Office Complex more or less complete. The hallways are looking very bare though.
Once I get a release/video out I’m sure there’ll be much discussion about my design decisions, but I’m actually hoping I won’t have to change anything major. My eye tells me there is nothing majorly wrong with any of the design elements on the map, but that’s just from my singular perspective.
I’m bored, taking a break from mapping, so I figure for the sake of being informative I’ll break down my A1 map into sections and estimate the completion amount. In this instance I’ll say that 100% complete means READY FOR ALPHA, “not finished totally no more work needed ever”. I’m also going over this chronologically (from the start of A1 to the end):
-HL A Loop-connecting rooms: 40% complete. Layout designed, in need of detailing + complex architecture.
-HL A Crane Room : 70% complete. Basic layout and detailing complete. In need of more complex detailing.
-HL B1 Lift Section: 85% complete. It even has the HECU Encounter fully set up. The tunnel leading away from it (dead end, but for decoration) needs completing.
-HL B1 50Cal Track Split Section: 50% complete. All basic architecture + enemy encounters set up, in dire need of detailing however. VERY empty.
-HL C Office Complex: 65% complete. All 1st floor rooms detailed + enemy encounters scripted + setup. Hallways + 2nd floor still completely empty.
-HL C Bridge Section: 20% complete. Blocked out.
-HL C End Section: 20% complete. Also blocked out.
-Overall: 60% complete (estimate). However, once the foundation is laid, which it nearly is now, the rest will be A LOT quicker.
I really look forward to Source 2 as well. Valve are innovators and I’m really excited to see what the future holds for the Source engine. I’m a really big fanboy I have to say, so my opinion’s pretty biased, but I LOVE the Source engine. Though it can’t no longer swing with the big boys graphically speaking, it’s just such a well rounded engine and it’s aged pretty spectacularly. It can still do so much despite its hefty limitations. The two best looking games on the Source engine IMO (Dear Esther + Black Mesa) look phenomenal, and definitely rival titles on far more “powerful” engines. As for a Source engine with streaming? I’d love that.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much man. I got pretty butthurt, and overreacted a little. Sorry bout that. Don’t worry about upsetting me - what you said wasn’t offensive, I just chose to take it as such because of my manly grumpy PMS. I will try my best to address that problem, even though it doesn’t bother me a great deal personally. I was REALLY hoping I wouldn’t have to edit any stock Black Mesa maps, but it looks like it’s almost inevitable I’ll have to edit A and B, which is a damn shame.
Random question, but are you going to have a tram lift with barnacles in it, which can be avoided simply by standing in the center of the tram? Or are you considering that to be an intentional omission on BM’s part?
I don’t have a tram lift yet that wasn’t one of Black Mesa’s. My B1 map will, though. I may add it there. Just another little bit of variety the tram journey could use, I guess.
I’m actually sketching out a neat little tram lift with barnacles in it right now. It’s the first map segment I’ve ever sketched out like this, but considering that, I’m pretty happy with it. I’ll put it up when I’m done.
So, lemme walk you through this little map chunk I’ve designed. Keep in mind, it’s the first map chunk I’ve ever designed.
The segment starts when the player rides their tram into the lift (they’re at the top), surrounded by barnacles (which will, if the player is competent enough to stay in the center of the tram when it’s rotating and moving downwards, be harmless - or, as we’ll see, helpful). A headcrab jumps out of a nearby vent, priming the player to be prepared for headcrabs coming out of vents soon. The lights flicker, and the announcement system informs the player that the lift is deactivated. The lift doesn’t have wide gaps on the side, so the player can’t just jump down. The player must enter a side room where a scientist zombie has killed a marine. The dumbass left their machine gun on a nearby table and tried to fight it hand-to-hand. Hopefully, this’ll attract the player’s attention to the satchel charges that are also on that table, which they’ll need soon. (There might also be health in the room.) In the side room, there’s a cargo elevator that may take the player to two lower side rooms.
The sideroom one floor down is inaccessible from the cargo elevator due to a pileup of HECU crates (though there’s a gap in the crates allowing the player to stealthily take out a marine to lower the difficulty of later combat). This parallels the sideroom two floors down, which is inaccessible due to a pileup of explosive HECU crates. The player must use a satchel charge to remotely detonate those explosives, as attempting to shoot them or grenade them will cause the explosion to kill the player in the elevator. Doing so will also kill a marine in that room who was standing guard (they’re far away enough from the explosives to not gib, leaving their ragdoll as a nice reward for the player). The sideroom that the player has just accessed is the Tram Lift Control Room. The player must activate the tram lift by pushing a button (or pulling a lever, doesn’t matter - pulling a lever might be nice for variety). Note that the Tram Lift Control Room has a doorway accessing the main tram lift, but it has been blocked with HECU crates that are too high to jump, but are short enough to see over. There might be one of these on the middle sideroom’s opening to the tram lift, too, for aesthetic purposes.
Once the player has activated the tram lift, they have some period of time (thirty seconds maybe?) to get back to their tram; there might be a corresponding countdown. The tram then rotates and descends. First, the tram faces a rail corridor that’s blocked off by an HECU sandbag barricade containing three marines. They’re best killed with MP5-launched grenades, which may be taken from the machine gun that the first dead marine left on the table in the side room. Behind these marines are quite a few rounds of dynamite that have been attached to the walls. Tripmines are hooked up to this dynamite. If the player sets off those tripmines from a distance, ie, with a grenade or bullet, the dynamite will be set off. It’s too far away to kill the player, but it’s strong enough to cave in the rail corridor, blocking off access. If the player charges forward to try to get past the tripmines, they will die, as there is no course through the tripmines and the dynamite explosion will kill the player if they’re caught in the midst of it. This allows for a nice illusion of openness and scale. If the player was so wise as to NOT kill the barnacles in the lift earlier, a barnacle will absorb a headcrab that jumps out of a vent to the right as the player passes the marine blockade. Otherwise, the headcrab may hit the player. If the player was so wise as to kill the marine in the middle side room earlier, they will only have to face the marines from one direction; otherwise, they will also be attacked by behind.
When the player has passed this marine blockade, they arrive at the bottom of the tram lift. Another headcrab jumps out of a vent to the left, and, once again, it will be absorbed by a barnacle unless the player has killed them. The player may now see the Tram Lift Control Room from the other side. The player proceeds out of the tram lift to find another HECU sandbag barricade to their left, containing even more marines, and a mounted machine gun. Maybe, after the player has killed the marines, have a nearby alien spawn sequence that is best dispatched with the mounted machine gun. Note that, if the game detects that the player has gotten stuck in the relevant place (there are several ways for this to happen), the HECU in that bottom sandbag barricade will open a door (which is locked from the other side) connecting to the Tram Lift Control Room, ambushing it, but allowing the player to get through this sequence without the tram.
Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.
It’s the first map segment I’ve ever sketched out like this, but considering that, I’m pretty happy with it. I’ll put it up when I’m done.