Know Why Were In Afghanistan?

[loony636]

Okay, this is the last time I’m even going to bother engaging with you on this topic. Mostly because its so ridiculously far away from the entire point of this thread that its not worth talking about any more. That and your endless plethora of ad hominem attacks cause me to beat my head into the table, and the constant concussion-related hospitalisations are proving a hefty burden on my family.

@mattemuse

In this case, the afghan army was supplied by the USSR, the “civilian government” had strong ties to the USSR, the “local communist party” had strong ties to the USSR. Sure, the Russians deposed the head of the civilian government when they invaded, but they also installed one of the founding members of the supposedly “local” communist party to replace him as the figurehead.

Okay, I agree with your premise that the Saur revolution was carried out by the army. But here is where you run into problems: You continually assert that the Afghan Army was, in fact, run and controlled by the USSR, that the Afghan Communist Party was effectively the Politburo and that Afghanistan was nothing more than a satellite state for the USSR. Here are a series of direct quotes from ‘A Bitter Harvest: US Foreign Policy and Afghanistan’ by Tom Lansford:

“The leadership of the PDPA, with support from Soviet intelligence officers, had been planning a coup for some time. In 1977, the two main Communist factions, Khalif and Parcham, agreed to cooperate in order to topple the regime.”

“…the coup was not a Soviet-sponsored exercise in regime change.” (p 115)

“In the aftermath of the coup, the United States in particular sought to maintain a relationship with the new government.” (p. 118)

“American policy would remain cautious until February of 1979 when its new ambassador, Adolph Dubbs was kidnapped in Kabul. Dubbs was held hostage in a hotel and killed along with his two captors when Afghan police, under the direction of Soviet advisors, fired into the room in an effort to rescue him…The Carter administration curtailed aid and withdrew the Peace Corps.” (p. 120)

If it was a cut-and-dry USSR-sponsored coup, why did US give them aid and send in the Peace Corps?

@mattemuse

the democratic overthrow of a monarchy is a coup, but a military takeover of civilian government is a “revolution.”

Err, pardon? In 1973 Mohammed Daoud Khan launched a bloodless coup and became the first President of Afghanistan while Zahir Shah was on an official overseas visit. There was no democracy, no civilian government; it was called a Republic, but it was still a single-party state run by President Khan.

[mattemuse]

Ok, we’ll wrap this it up then. I took a look at the quotes and links you’ve provided, and hey, looks like I learned a thing or two about Afghanistan’s history of outside intervention (which by the way couldn’t possibly be more relevant to the topic of this thread, “why are we in Afghanistan”). I guessed that Daoud’s coup was democratic, oops, according to the link you provided, quote, “the coup itself was carried out by junior officers trained in the Soviet Union.” My mistake! And hey, I didn’t even know that it was common knowledge that the '78 coup was planned, quote, “with support from Soviet intelligence officers” so thanks for pointing that out. You’ve really blown your own argument* out of the water - unless you have any other positions you’d like to debunk, I think we’re done here.

*“your own argument” being:

@loony636

The 1978 Saur revolution was not, however, a coup;
The 1978 Coup was not supported by the USSR.

[loony636]

@mattemuse

I guessed that Daoud’s coup was democratic, oops,

My god, you really are unbelievably and completely intolerably bigoted, aren’t you. On the one hand you attempt to criticise me for having ill-formed opinions based on nothing but fallacy, and yet at the same time you “guess” about particular points of history and ignore pretty much everything I write. I know that convincing you of your own fallacy is patently impossible, but hopefully others wont fall into the trap of believing what you write.

@mattemuse

according to the link you provided, quote, “the coup itself was carried out by junior officers trained in the Soviet Union.” My mistake! And hey, I didn’t even know that it was common knowledge that the '78 coup was planned, quote, “with support from Soviet intelligence officers” so thanks for pointing that out.

Your contention, as weird and fantastic as it has become, is that as a result of some junior officers in the army helping in carrying out the takeover which overthrew a fundamentally undemocratic government, and the fact that the Communist Party in Afghanistan liased with some of the USSR’s security officers, therefore the 1978 Saur revolution was a coup by the USSR. Aside from the fact that the exact same source said that the 1978 coup/revolution wasn’t a USSR takeover (a fact that you skillfully avoided talking about by completely ignoring). Your analysis ignores the point that the US actively hoped to win over the Communist Party precisely because they knew that it wasn’t just a USSR puppet.

It also ignores the fact (which I haven’t explored in the past) which is that the USSR obtained permission to enter the country only after they entered and replaced the government. Two days after they killed and replaced the leader, he then asked for their help. If the Afghan government was just a puppet of the USSR, then why didn’t they just stroll in as though nothing was out of the ordinary?

Also: The fact that they replaced Amin with someone from his own party proves nothing; the Afghan government had very little, if any, control over the country after the invasion. Mostly because the USSR troops dissolved the Afghan army almost completely.

Let me pose you a question: Why would the USSR want to overthrow the Daoud regime? Why they invaded in 1979 is a different question, since then they had a valid security concern, but why did, under your hypothesis of absurdities, did it do it then?

@loony636

The 1978 Saur revolution was not, however, a coup;
The 1978 Coup was not supported by the USSR.

And let’s sort out this whole coup/revolution thing. Frankly, I think the distinction is somewhat moot, mainly because the terminology doesn’t prove anything one way or the other and its absolutely irrelevant for the purposes of this thread. I called it a revolution mainly because that’s its name; the Saur Revolution. Presumably as part of a ploy by the Communist Party to legitimise their takeover of power as ‘popular’.

While I could list examples of where the distinction between a coup and a revolution is blurred, I think its irrelevant here; the people, very quickly, came to hate the Communist Party (the main reason why the Russians invaded), and their system of government wasn’t democratic in the slightest. The only reason it was relevant was because you were contending that it overthrew a democratic government, which it didn’t, so the entire point is, as I said, moot.

[mattemuse]

@loony636

Let me pose you a question: Why would the USSR want to overthrow the Daoud regime? Why they invaded in 1979 is a different question, since then they had a valid security concern, but why did, under your hypothesis of absurdities, did it do it then?

I should cry about your “ad hominem attacks” rather than responding to this, but the Daoud government Russia had helped to install (via planning and supporting the coup, not directly as per your straw man) was insufficiently friendly towards Russia and was making overtures towards the West, therefore the Kremlin “supported” (again, this is a quote from evidence you specifically cited) the overthrow in favor of an even more friendly regime. For a historical example of how a friendly client states leadership will be changed when it becomes inconvenient, see: Diem’s regime/regime change in Vietnam.

Since you have focused on a straw man, I’ll clarify what I’m saying. I’m saying that political instability in Afghanistan was fomented by Russian interests and these coups were carried out with Russian support. I’m not saying Russia somehow directly overthrew the Afghan monarchy through direct military action.
Again, what your sources tell you is that Russia was intimately involved in every significant political development in Afghanistan from 1973 until they invaded. During every change in government, each time resulting in a government friendlier to the USSR than the previous one, your sources specifically point out a Russian connection in planning, supporting, arming, and training coups.
What exactly are we disagreeing about here?