French Court Convicts Scientologists of Fraud!

[Garcian_Smith]

@Raminator

I just object to organised religion (in all its forms) for the way it has historically exploited and manipulated people who weren’t educated enough to know any better.

Exactly. You only have to look at John Ratzinger’s comments on HIV/AIDS:

“I would say that this problem of Aids cannot be overcome merely with money, necessary though it is. If there is no human dimension, if Africans do not help, the problem cannot be overcome by the distribution of prophylactics: on the contrary, they increase it.”

Not only does the above show a scant disregard for science, it clearly demonstrates how an archaic Catholic belief can have, potentially, disastrous ramifications. The problem I have with organised religion is that it sticks its nose in areas which do not concern it. Ratzinger should have never been allowed to make the above comment - he may see himself as God’s representative on Earth, but when it comes to afflictions as grave as HIV/AIDS his belief system has no jurisdiction in medical matters.

As Ram astutely pointed out, I have no right to judge anybody on their personal beliefs, but when organised religion makes such a massive cock-up such as the above, any pretence of ‘respect’ should be immediately abandoned and religion should be openly and fiercely criticised.

[Jack]

…

Can y’all stop bashing religion please? It’s making me feel a bit down…

[danielsangeo]

@Raminator

What do you mean when you say “most major religions”? The three desert monotheisms are slightly different variations on the one theme, and they’re the ones behind pretty much every atrocity in recent history (from the Crusades through to the current “war on terror”).

Think of it like a movie. The Torah is the first one, and the New Testament the sequel. Then the Qur’an comes out, and it retcons the last one like it never happened. There’s still Jesus, but he’s not the main character anymore, and the messiah hasn’t shown up yet. Jews like the first movie but ignored the sequels. Christians think you need to watch the first two, but the third movie doesn’t count. The Muslims think the third one was the best, and Mormons liked the second one so much, they started writing fanfiction that doesn’t fit with ANY of the series canon.

–Ari J. Greenberg

And now people are killing each other over which one is the best. :’(

[JohnKiller118]

@danielsangeo

Think of it like a movie. The Torah is the first one, and the New Testament the sequel. Then the Qur’an comes out, and it retcons the last one like it never happened. There’s still Jesus, but he’s not the main character anymore, and the messiah hasn’t shown up yet. Jews like the first movie but ignored the sequels. Christians think you need to watch the first two, but the third movie doesn’t count. The Muslims think the third one was the best, and Mormons liked the second one so much, they started writing fanfiction that doesn’t fit with ANY of the series canon.

–Ari J. Greenberg

And now people are killing each other over which one is the best. :’(

Epic.

[Acristoff]

I lol’ed.

I probably shouldn’t even have said anything in this thread because all I can say is “lets agree to disagree”, but noooo that would end the thread.

[ThatOneGuy]

I don’t post much, but I thought I might contribute just a bit to this topic.

I have recently been taking a philosophy class and am really loving it. I especially like the discussions on epistemology. Anyway, I’ve noticed that many here have brought up the ‘rationality’ of atheism over theism and would like to point out that there are many compelling arguments for the rationality of the existence of God as well as his/her/its nonexistence. I’d recommend reading about Leibniz and John Hick, as well as Hume and Descartes. Anselm’s Ontological Argument is interesting as is Pascal’s Wager.

I’d like to point out that I, myself, am an Animist and a firm believer of the separation of one’s spiritual world from this physical world. This world is driven by science and human ‘logic’, I believe, and what one believes (or doesn’t) lies beyond is completely unprovable, unfalsifiable, and personal.

Remember, to try to understand a point of view does NOT imply agreement with it.

TL;DR: Philosophy is fun, believe what you want without impeding science or personal liberties, and be respectful.

[danielsangeo]

@ThatOneGuy

there are many compelling arguments for the rationality of the existence of God

I haven’t seen any, to be honest.

[ThatOneGuy]

Did you try looking at the ones I suggested? Anyway, perhaps compelling was the wrong word. I meant well structured and thought out. That said, we haven’t come across a theory about anything in Philosophy yet that many of us haven’t put holes through. Well, Descartes’ skepticism is pretty solid, as are a few other things, but for the most part, a logical objection can be brought up to almost all of the arguments we have studied so far.

EDIT: Also, take a look at my last point. If you read these arguments, and try to understand their meaning, you may (read:probably) be able to raise justified objections that you can use in later debates. It also shows you’ve read up on the subject and makes people more willing to listen to your reasons.

[danielsangeo]

@ThatOneGuy

Did you try looking at the ones I suggested? Anyway, perhaps compelling was the wrong word. I meant well structured and thought out. That said, we haven’t come across a theory about anything in Philosophy yet that many of us haven’t put holes through. Well, Descartes’ skepticism is pretty solid, as are a few other things, but for the most part, a logical objection can be brought up to almost all of the arguments we have studied so far.

EDIT: Also, take a look at my last point. If you read these arguments, and try to understand their meaning, you may (read:probably) be able to raise justified objections that you can use in later debates. It also shows you’ve read up on the subject and makes people more willing to listen to your reasons.

Yes, I’ve read them before. Well-structured arguments? Sure. Well thought-out arguments? You bet. Compelling? Just about as compelling as magic is in a Harry Potter book or ripping open spacetime to allow for lightning-shooting aliens to come in and take over the world because it happened in a video game.

Sure, Valve thought Half-Life out very well and the story is well thought out, but just because it’s well-structured doesn’t make it true.

As for raising objections about anything, sure, you can raise objections about anything. Doesn’t mean that your objection will be sustained and a preponderance of the facts can surely overrule all objections that exist in contravention of the facts.

Philosophy, to me, is nothing more than mental masturbation. It’s fun, and is a great way to spend an afternoon, but it’s nothing like the real thing.

Comicus: I am a stand-up philosopher.
Woman: A what?
Comicus: A stand-up philosopher. I coalesce the vapors of human experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension.
Woman: Oh. A bullshit artist.[/SIZE]

[ThatOneGuy]

Actually, the objections I mentioned were all based in logic and reason and, from what I can tell, were in agreement with your view. Also, I did admit that ‘compelling’ was the wrong word; I really didn’t mean to use it in the first place.

Anyways, I wasn’t trying to convince anyone of one or the other, just trying to perhaps douse the flames a bit (silly I know). It might provide some material for both sides to use in their arguments; it does make me sad when debates devolve into repetition and personal attacks. Yes, I know that is a past-time here on these forums, and it’s actually quite amusing sometimes, but I just thought I’d put some two-cents in (not really mine).

[Acristoff]

Just saw a person throw person a off a bridge for their religion on the intertubes. Not saying everyone who believes in religion is this type of douche bag but the fact that he believed in doing it so blindly scares me.

[CatzEyes93]

My only concern is the way folks like to group all of the crazy fanatical religious people together with the perfectly normal but God loving people. It makes debating the topic a hopeless cause. One that I don’t bother with anymore.

[hercule_poirots_nuts]

the thing is tho, if there is a god what right does he have to rule us as a tyrant? if he turns out to exist we should kill him and be free

[hercule_poirots_nuts]

everyone on earth fire a gun wildly into the sky

[Winged_One]

If there is a god, he has the right to rule us because he made us and are thus his play-things.

[Lord_Grievous]

I piss on religion.

[Acristoff]

@hercule poirots nutsack

the thing is tho, if there is a god what right does he have to rule us as a tyrant? if he turns out to exist we should kill him and be free

Now you’re thinking with heresy.

@CatzEyes93

My only concern is the way folks like to group all of the crazy fanatical religious people together with the perfectly normal but God loving people. It makes debating the topic a hopeless cause. One that I don’t bother with anymore.

Yes, that mentality of “You’re with us or you’re against us, choose one” is a very stupid one. But when religion is forcing it’s views on the rest of the world, something is wrong.

[hercule_poirots_nuts]

piss directly up

[Acristoff]

@Winged One

If there is a god, he has the right to rule us because he made us and are thus his play-things.

If I were to make a clone of a person I own it? I can treat it as a slave? I can keep cloning it and pitting it in hopeless matches against animals for my own amusement? I’m pretty sure that was a joke but still.

[JohnKiller118]

@Raminator

How far do you think a holocaust-denier would get if they asked “what about all the good things Hitler did?”, because it can be taken at the same face value. There are thousands of charities and philanthropic organisations that have no religious affiliation; altruism is a pretty deep-seated human trait.

Raminator, as always, wins in the most epic way possible.

But only the second part. If someone takes comfot thinking that there are cameras watching him/her in the sky protecting him, he/she needs help.
Take the test!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCX0JJ16dFM