I have met many Christians that believe that gays are NOT sinners any more than anyone else. They believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin. They believe that gays are children of God deserving of dignity and respect.
So, tell me, Assassin, are they wrong?
Care is opposed to anger. If you care about someone, you wish the best to that person, even if he does something that you don’t agree with. For instance, I don’t like abortions, I think they should be avoided whenever possible. However, I wouldn’t use psychological pressure one some girl that chooses to have an abortion.
Would I ask her if she is sure that it is the best choice? Yes, of course I would. I would not ask for details, but if she willingly explains to me what happened, I would ask questions about that and after understanding completely what happened, I would tell her my sincere opinion about it, but I would only form an opinion after her telling me the whole story, because you can’t judge anyone by the theory.
But who am I to prohibit her for having an abortion? I won’t take care of the child for her (unless I’m the father, of course). It won’t be me the one to carry a big belly for nine months and to feel ashamed of it.
Same goes for homosexuals. I can’t tell them they can’t be homosexuals, because I don’t avoid my attraction to girls and I go out with them. I’m not a priest nor a monk, I didn’t take vows on chastity and I don’t want to! Who am I to judge them? And I’m pretty sure you didn’t take vows on chastity as well.
If you hate someone, it means you feel personally offended by something he does or did. You must pay attention to your feelings all the time and ask yourself where they came from. Don’t accept the first answer, nor the second, but consider various possibilities, specially the ones that you don’t like. Pay double of the attention to ideas that make you angry or uncomfortable, because anger occurs frequently when you find a truth that goes against what you believe. A thin person doesn’t get angry for being called fatso and a beautiful girl doesn’t get angry for being called ugly.
Here is my advice to you: pay more attention to people that offend and argue with you than to your friends, and think about what they say to you. Your friends won’t point your mistakes, but your enemies certainly will. I’m pretty sure that is what Jesus meant when he said “love your enemies”, not because God will give you a reward for that, but because they help you to be better. Another reason is that hating your enemies will make them hate you even more and you will suffer the consequences for your own hate. Unless your enemy chooses not to hate you. In this case, your enemy precedes you in the kingdom of heaven, even if he is a pervert fag, am I right? Or isn’t love more important than chastity? “For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice”.
Equal right? Do you mean they should have the right to date and get married?
From a different Assassin:
Yes they are wrong. They are embarassingly wrong. They are blinded by their own sin. The Bible leaves no room to question homosexuality as a sin.
In 1 Corinthians
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Or in Romans 1:
26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.
27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
Or bluntly in Jude
7 And don’t forget the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with sexual immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and are a warning of the eternal fire that will punish all who are evil.
What does this mean?
Could a gay person go to heaven? I am a Christian, and a sinner, and yet I am assured salvation into heaven through the saving blood of Jesus Christ. I will never stop sinning. Clearly though all of my sins are wrong and through the Holy Spirit’s work of sanctification I work through this. Gay people are sinners just like I am. They live a life enslaved to Sin. Could God save such a sinner? Yes he could. But the gay person ought to be convicted of his sins, cease and repent.
Cliffs notes: Yes, gay people are sinners. They must stop the sin of homosexuality. They could potentially be saved, but they ought to confess their sin and repent and stop their homosexuality.
Except that none of those oft-quoted passages reference homosexuality. 1 Corinthians 6:9 (the passage you seem to be claiming) does not say “homosexuals” at all; you’ve got a munged translation. This quote refers to men who have sex with men, for sure, but that isn’t homosexuality; it’s just same-sex coitus. Homosexuality is ATTRACTION to the same sex. This passage restricts acts of other religions, not the orientation. One can be a celibate homosexual.
Romans 1 is just right out for the same reason.
Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because they were uncaring of the poor (Ezekiel 16:49, et al).
No, many Christians do not believe homosexuality to be a sin. If you consider them to be “wrong”, could it be possible that you are the one that is actually wrong? Have you thought about that?
I question myself daily if I’m right or not. Do you?
I thought it was crystal clear to all parties involved that this ‘issue’ is simply the use of scripture to justify homophobia.
If you’re a Christian pre-occupied with the issue homosexuality, stop fooling yourself - you’re a hateful, ignorant asshole (or possibly a latent homosexual) - and, strictly-speaking, the use of scripture to justify fear and hatred is heretical.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, otherwise STFU. Or something like that.
I’m aware that there are many Christians who are honest, decent, and truly faithful, but let’s face it - there are a GREAT number of people who claim Christianity in order to usurp God’s authority on Earth, justify their own unchristian thoughts and deeds, and exercise power over others that they deem to be a threat, inferior, or both. The use of scripture as purely organizational rhetoric or to justify immoral actions is, strictly speaking, heretical and false prophecy. And those that subscribe to this type of Christianity are, strictly speaking, followers of false prophets.
But whether or not God exists as described by the Abrahamic religions, whether or not Jesus was his Son who was sacrificed for our salvation - we should all, Christian or non-Christian, gay or straight, recognize ignorant, hateful assholes as ignorant, hateful assholes, and not as legitimate interpreters of scripture.
For those who don’t already know, this issue of Christian homophobia is not new, but this current intense focus in which Christians all over the world are organized to institute political and social persecution of homosexuals is rather new. This movement originated in the US initially by one man - Ted Haggard, who used the issue advance his career and expand his influence and power in the Evangelical Christian industry, eventually becoming the President of the National Association of Evangelicals.
But it turns out that he enjoyed sex with teen-aged male prostitutes and small mountains of crystal meth.
So one guy with psychological issues stemming from (not even) latent homosexualty expresses his self-hatred (while at the same time fashioning a Beard) in the form of organizing evangelicals into a crusade against gays which has spread around the world, and even 5 years later there are Christians who still haven’t gotten the memo that this was all a bunch of bullshit from a self-hating gay dude. THAT is ignorant. Seriously - why is anyone still talking about this shit? Go help the poor.
You could say that the divine created a diversity of gender-identity, which you can prove by simply saying that the diversity exists, and therefore it must have been created. But the same would apply to rape, and torture then. Those are things we can do if we want, but in the end they are barely relevant. Why would you use your sexual parts to try to seperate yourself from others, using gender-identity? Because the difference between man and woman is that small at times (as in the case of hermaphrodites), that in order to ensure non-homosexual contact and quick reproduction, gender was invented, constantly signalling which reproductional part you possess. That is why I do not uphold the whole “MEN are like this” and “WOMEN are like this” shit because it is all a very bad and very old ACT.
The problem is that people are desperately thriving for identity. They need to label themself constantly German, Christian, Catholic, rich, Porsche-driver, Gucci, educated, jet-setter and MALE/female.
However I live by a philosophy saying that only those things, needs and requirements of humanity REALLY matter, which are shared by all human beings equally. Gender identity is not one. The desire to reproduce is one maybe.
Once I find a human being that I like, I will make sure to check the reproductional parts. Last time my partner had a vagina and reproduction was possible. But we did not reproduce anyway because we were too young to feed them through. The irony…
Prepare for 95% reality and 5 % subjective truth. BILL HICKS!
‘https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk’
Not really, no. Those are nonconsensual acts and have nothing to do with orientation. Like I said, “same sex coitus” isn’t homosexuality if there’s no attraction. A homosexual man can marry a woman and have 18 kids by her, but that doesn’t mean he’s straight. And vice versa. A gay man or gay woman might be completely celibate, but still remain homosexual.
No, sorry, I used a very bad example. I do not want to imply that homosexuality is rape (at least not more than any other kind of sex 
)
I was talking about the fact that assuming a gender identity is one of those things I see as much sense in as in torturing or raping people: none. These male/female, homosexual/heterosexual dychotomies are in my opinion in most cases a means of power demonstration and oppression. Maybe I am just weird.
Sorry once again. I did not explain my comparison very thoroughly.
To me, one doesn’t just “assume” a gender identity…One identifies as male or female and, the vast majority of the time, a male identifies as a male and a female identifies as a female…but not always.
And one doesn’t just “assume” a sexual orientation either; one is either attracted to men, or to women, or to both, or to none at all. There’s really no fifth option and there’s no “changing” any more than one can change their race or species. I’m sure that there are stories out there of “changing orientation” which, by and large, are completely fictional or those that are just bisexual (the “I can choose to become [gay/straight]” people).
Back on topic: To me, I don’t understand how some Christians can see homosexuality as sinful while other Christians don’t see it, even though they both follow the same scriptures. Can someone assist me in understanding?
About assuming gender: I recommend reading Judith Butler. I for one have come to the conclusion that we are educated into a gender. For me it is a burden. I can cry whenever I want, punch whomever I see fit in self defense and I can flip off people trying to burden me with their moronic gender rulesets like: the man has to open doors for women. The man must work and the woman must BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ! MUST MUST MUST ! fucking control freaks.
About assuming sexual orientation: I can not be certain about that and you have a point. Maybe I mistook those BIs I know (at least 3 have a functioning relationsship with a woman) for Gays, because these BIs claimed all their life they were gay…
I don’t believe that we are educated into a gender. I am a male by sex (I got a penis and everything!). I self-identify as male. I hate sports. I don’t want to get into fisticuffs at the drop of the hat. I don’t consider myself superior to women; I don’t think they belong in the kitchen, waiting on the man’s every need. Or whatever else the stereotypical “man” does. I’m just me. Yet I identify as male. Not because I was educated any specific way.
I believe that sexual orientation is something that is completely misunderstood. If you’re a man and you’re attracted to men, you MUST be “gay”…but if you’re also attracted to women, perhaps you can be “cured” of teh ghey. After all, as long as you don’t do the horizontal tango with a man, you’re okay in the eyes of God, right? I fully believe that those that feel they can “change” orientations are simply bisexuals anyway because they’re attracted to both sexes.
I’m not a Christian, I’m not a Muslim, I’m not a Jew. I’m an atheist. But, if there were a God, I believe that He made everyone as we see them now…and that attacking people’s orientation, suggesting it’s something that has to be “cured” is “second-guessing God”.
Opinions?
it’s a Christian tradition. and the godfather/mothers job is not to adopt you but to take care of your soul. help your parents whit your growing up.
no it isn’t
fixed
yes they are. also i know what most christians are like.
no care isn’t opposed to anger. why? lets pretend that 2 man are walking in the street 1 your brother 2nd unknown person. they both take stone and throw on old lady. on who you will be more angry? and abortionm, again and again. NO ONE, I REPEAT. NO ONE has the right to kill living PERSON. if there was a man who couldnt speak see hear and had no legs and arms. would you consider him as dead? (litheraly).
Why are they wrong and you’re right? What if they’re right and you’re wrong? Is that possible?
no it is not. have you heard word axiom? it easily describes situation.
they can do whatever they want.
you are right homosexuals dont like man but they like man. or not?
Ok, we can assume that you are right, but your example does not apply to homosexuals because they don’t hurt anyone. They can be considered at most crazy people. If someone is crazy and you care about him, you are not going to hate him, you are going to pity him and do something about it if you can. It is impossible to hate someone for simply being wrong (whether stupid or crazy) when he is not doing any harm to you or anyone else.
You can repeat that as many times as you want, but that is still just an opinion, your opinion. The girl having an abortion doesn’t share your opinion. You must not judge without understanding the entire situation, otherwise you will misjudge.
One person has the right to kill another person in self defense, so your premise “no one has the right to kill living person” is clearly false.
NO!
Axiom is an obvious truth that everyone agrees. When it comes to homosexuality, there is a lot of disagreement. In this case, the word you are looking for is premise, which is basically an unproven opinion that you assume as truth. Since this is an opinion, no one is forced to agree with it, and, since it is unproven, there is a very, very high chance that it is false.
^ This
I know your question was rhetorical, but I’ll give my answer to it. Christianity, like almost all religions in the world, teaches guilt and that the only way to be forgiven is in religion. For instance, in Catholicism, you have to confess your sins to a priest and excommunication can only be forgiven by the pope himself. That way, after feeling guilty, people go back to religion because they want forgiveness.
The most common guilt Christianity teaches is sexual guilt (sexual guilt is not natural, it is taught). That is why Christians hate homosexuals: because they are open about their sexual feelings while Christians can’t. They are taught to feel ashamed of it. That is, the anger comes from envy.
In my opinion, that envy shows that Christians don’t really like to be closed about their sexuality, but they are taught to feel ashamed of it. In this case, for them, chastity is not a natural, but a forced choice. In other words, it is not mercy, but sacrifice.
The anger comes from this forced choice. You don’t like making that choice, it makes you angry, and then you project this anger towards who didn’t make this choice and doesn’t even feel ashamed of it. It is like when poor people are angry at rich people, or when fat people are angry at skinny people that eat too much.
Unless some Christian can give me a reasonable answer to this question: why do Christians hate homosexuals?
you can harm man with words only.
this is reality and if some egoist bitch wants to kill her baby i ll say that i will hate her and there wont be even a drop of pitiness.
i already gave you. the reason of hate is not the sin itself but the fact that they accept sin as normal thing. they spread the ideology of homosexualism as acceptable thing for everyone.
This is an intelligent position - I agree. In fact, in the last 10 years there have been several major psychological studies that describe this mechanic, although the subjects weren’t Christians and homosexuality was not an issue. It’s a basic psychological mechanic and not limited to Christians or sexual repression. But the recognition of this kind of misplaced resentment has been recognized and described since at least Plato.
However, because of the social psychology of the specific people that you’re describing (homophobic Christians), you can only expect about 5% to shift their position.
You really just don’t get Christianity, do ya?
Kanye - you’re a gay fish, man.
fix’d
‘Sin’ is absolutely normal. According to Christianity, we are born with it, and as humans it is inescapable. We are all sinners.
Homosexuality is not an ideology, not even close. And there is no “gay conspiracy” to turn everyone gay. So, relax - accepting homosexuals as human beings with the same legal rights, equal protection of the law, and basic human dignity doesn’t mean that YOU have to take a cock in the ass.
Yes, I agree with that, your feel harmed somehow.
The following sentence hurts you: “homosexuality is normal”. The question that remains is: “why does that sentence hurts you?”
It can’t be just because it is wrong (in your opinion). If a teacher tells you your answer in a test is wrong and you know you are right, that is not gonna make you hate your teacher forever. You will feel anger at first, but then you will see there is nothing you can do - after all, he is your teacher. Then you will try to get the grades that you need somehow. The same thing happens every time you strongly believe that you are true and someone else says otherwise.
The reason that saying “homosexuality is normal” hurts you is because it shows lack of sexual guilt, like I explained in this post:
+1
Sorry, Assassin, but you are not any better than any Christian I know. You are intolerant and unwilling to question your position, you don’t pay attention to Jesus’ teachings or try to follow them. It is crystal clear and you even admitted that you are filled with anger, but you don’t even care to know why.
Religion, to you, is just a fan club where you praise Jesus, ask him to forgive your sins and you are done. You don’t want to learn, you reject to pay attention to what other people have to say, treating everything you think about religion and moral as a lot of axioms that no one can question or disagree, no matter how absurd or contradictory they are. That makes it impossible for you to fight against your sins and to become a better person.
Unfortunately, I can’t do anything to change that, because, as I said, you reject everything you listen. You fail to realize that you need people, you need everyone. That is Jesus’ greatest lesson: you must love people because you need them. And note that the kind of people that Jesus criticized the most were not the sinners, not the pagans, or prostitutes, or gay people, but the religious fanatics, and you are one of them.
Do your remember when Jesus said that, in the end times, there is going to be a lot of people saying “But Lord, I was your disciple!” and that he will answer “Stay away, I don’t even know you.”? That person is you.
And no, I don’t hate you, I pity you and I really wish that someday you change your mind and understand what you are doing right now. I pity you because I was like this once, and I know how much harm I caused to other people because of that. And believe me: you are harming yourself and a lot of people along the way much, much more than homosexuals harm you.
You are not a Christian.
Thank you. The idea that Christianity is based on sexual guilt is not mine, I got it from Dr. Darrel Ray, on the lecture “The God Virus”. I posted the link in the thread “Ask an Agnostic”.
Once I asked one Christian gay friend of mine why my sister hates homosexuals so much, and he thought it was guilty about her own sexuality. If you know my sister, you will see that this fits like a glove. Then I put all of this together.
I think 5% is a high estimative. I wish I could help all of those blind Christians, but I feel powerless somehow. I’ll try to do my best nevertheless
Homosexuals are those that are only attracted to members of the same sex. That’s it.
If you aren’t attracted only to members of the same sex, then you aren’t a homosexual. Your sexual actions do not make you a homosexual.
Because man is blinded by his sin.
Because the Bible says so.
Matthew 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Clearly, even just being attracted to another man in such a way is considered a sin as well.
Do I ever question whether Im right? Absolutely. Do I question of the Bible is right? Absolutely not. And there is no room for interpretational differences in these passages.
Consider this one. If God calls homosexuality a sin, and yet homosexuality is a genetic trait that he established, how can he blame such people for being homosexual when it is part of who they are? When they have no choice in the matter? Does this make sense?
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