I agree that free will is debatable, but not because of some entity’s omniscience.
Done. No more.
Agreed. If anything, I believe it’s a learned experience that is defined by upbringing. You can never choose where you are born, yet the area you live and those you know have a distinct impact on your personality and the person you become. When you come of age to a time when you have responsibilty to make your own choices, your upbringing will factor heavily into the decisions you make, which in essence creates the illusion that free-will is something that you have complete control over - your subconscious mind must surely play a factor into your decision making.
The reason I ask about “free will” is that a whole boatload of Christians have told me that the existence of evil is the result of “free will” and that “evil” didn’t exist before the expulsion from paradise; that it’s humanity’s fault.
Yet, if God was omniscient, God would know that Adam and Eve would betray Him in the Garden and eat from the tree…even before Genesis 1:1. Yet, He created them anyway and they did exactly what He knew they were going to do…and punished them anyway…and, by extension, all of us unless we join that religion and accept His son as our savior.
It’d be like programming an invulnerable NPC in a video game that can hit you for double your HP in one hit and then complaining when that NPC kills you as programmed. THAT is completely asinine, isn’t it?
Adam and Eve had NO CHOICE but to eat from the tree. There is no free will if God is omniscient. So, do we have free will or is God not omniscient?
Or, what is “free will”, then?
Again, just because god knew adam and eve were going to do that doesn’t mean they didn’t choose to themselves.
But why are we discussing things we don’t even believe anyway?
Daniel it’s really not good to get hung up on one single logical fallacy when it comes to Christian religions. Save your energy. There is literally a whole book full of contradictions, logical fallacies, and outright fabrications to go through. You are going to give yourself an embolism or something, going on like this.
bur: But they didn’t choose to do anything themselves; they were following a predetermined path; something God knew was going to happen. We might think we made a choice, but it was the only choice available; it’s impossible for me to have the soup if God knows I’m going to have pizza.
Max: I’m expending no energy here; I am really sedate. 
I am asking Christians these questions in hopes they’ll respond so I can learn more. It’s a dialogue that I wish I could have as a mature adult; I just wish I could actually get answers.
it is one of the reasons, the main reason is devil. but it existed before the expulsion from paradise. if it wasn’t they couldn’t commit sin.
your argument on there is no free will is not enough to prove it and I show you why. so god knows everything that means he knows that there will be vulcan explosion or earthquake or that wind will blow… well since he is god he may be able to calculate this as well but still I think that he just exists out of time and he has seen the time and the end is good.
So, God is not omniscient? The Bible is wrong?
I think I wrote nothing against gods omniscience…
So, we have no free will?
we have(partly)
So, can we do something that God isn’t expecting?
If that was the case, that would imply god could be outsmarted. Which would be awesome.
Wellan example of outsmarting god would be immortallity, I mean living forever does outsmart death…Yeah I think I’ll go with that
again, god’s knowledge of the path does not say anything about whether it is predetermined or not
bur: Please explain that.
Well I mean it does… Like he said if god knows you will have pizza then inevitably you will have pizza. It is from your perspective that since you don’t think about god already knowing this or about god at the time, to you you will either choose soup or pizza, its just god knows already what you will pick and there for you will pick it. it is predetermined
your actions are not based on the knowledge, the knowledge is based on your actions
i dont see whats so difficult here
bur: Yet, the Bible states otherwise. The Bible states that God knows you before you’re born. So, God knows what you’re going to do prior to your birth. God knew that I would be eating pasta tonight (rotini-shaped!) even back before Genesis 1:1.
This is what the Bible states.
Therefore, I had no choice but to eat pasta tonight. I may think it’s based on free will; that I could’ve had the hot dogs or the mac and cheese, but I really didn’t have any choice in the matter.
I can’t do something that God doesn’t expect.
daniel - he’s saying that God stands outside of time and outside of the ‘system’.
This is a pragmatic theological solution to the freewill/determinism problem in Christianity.
Determinism was especially a problem for Protestant groups, who believed that there was a specific number of people who would be chosen to enter Heaven. Since God seems to know the future, he must also know who will be saved. Believing that God would judge them by their good work, and recognizing that they were in a competition with others to get into Heaven, these Protestants spent every waking moment working. Protestant determinism is the origin of ‘the Protestant work ethic’.
But there was a problem - some clever guy reasoned that if the list to get into Heaven had already been determined, it didn’t matter how hard you worked - if you weren’t on the list you weren’t getting in.
In fact, if you WERE already on the list, you didn’t have to work at all. If you were on the list, you could sin all you wanted because you were getting into Heaven, and if you WEREN’T on the list you could sin all you wanted because you weren’t getting into Heaven anyway.
So, these people basically did whatever they wanted with no regard for morality. Technically, they were nihilists, but their acts of moral freedom were mostly limited to heavy drinking, sexual immorality, expressions of disrespect for social convention and protocol, etc. There is a name for this group, but I forget it at the moment.
I could be wrong, but I think the dual value solution ( “God stands outside of time”) was from Aquinas, but the Protestants rejected most of Catholic dogma, not understanding that much of it existed as solutions for theological problems like this one. I think most Protestants now also use the dual value solution.
It’s a clever theological solution, but there are some weird scriptural problems. In Genesis, after they eat the fruit and recognize that they are naked and feel shame, they hear God coming down the path and hide in the bushes.
God says something like 'Adam? Where are you?"
Adam replies, “I’m here Lord”
Then God says “Why are you hiding from me?”
Adam tells him that he’s naked and feels ashamed. God asks him if he’s eaten the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. Etc.
I don’t know remember the exchange exactly but this is basically what happens in this part of the story.
Proponents of the dual value solution explain this passage as “God was just fucking with them” - not such a clever theological solution.