It would if the fetus was aware of its own body and existence. Which it isn’t, at least during the beginning of the pregnancy. It doesn’t feel or know.
no because the fetus isn’t an autonomous, living, breathing, thinking, caring, AWARE human being and the woman is.
the whole potentiality argument is so ridiculous
a sperm cell has “potential” too, do men not wank?
an egg cell has “potential” too, do women not menstruate?
a bunch of inanimate carbon-based materials have the potential to form life and eventually evolve into conscious beings, do you not use carbon-based fuel?
Like I said to the other person, you don’t have to read it if you don’t want to. If you want to criticize it, though, then you kind of have to know what I said. I actually said in that very post that it’s not really relevant to why one should support of not support abortion, but that it’s merely interesting to see how we’ve come to where we are today, and how it might be that we use the words we use. Also, I didn’t talk about where the word abortion “stems” from. I theorized on where the current fetus/human distinction comes from.
First off, I appreciate that you’re responding by actually considering what I’m saying. Anyway, adoption is an alternative to abortion, though, so I don’t see why that can’t be discussed. In fact, I’d advocate for that. Obviously, trying to force the child to love its own child is also wrong. I don’t really agree with force in any case. Even in those cases, I’d still stick by the “decisions were made” argument that I brought up earlier. Thankfully, girls have to reach a certain age before their bodies “reach the potential” to bear a child of their own. So that’s kind of a built-in defense for the young. Sadly, though, thanks to the hormones we’re pumping into kids in conjunction with the crap that we’re doing to the food we eat, that age seems to be decreasing slightly. Hopefully it doesn’t go down any further.
Also, I’m not claiming to know what it’s like or how I’d act, but instead think of a way I should act, regardless of what its like to me. I’m a guy, so I can’t get pregnant, but all I can say is I hope I would think and do the same if I were a girl that was in that situation. Also, this is partly why I don’t think legislation is the solution, because only the given person in any situation has the inherent right to decide what to do. Others can say how they feel about it, but forcing them to do it “their way” is wrong. Similarly, are you really doing the “right thing” if you’re only doing it because you’ve been forced/coerced to do so?
The thing with most abortion arguments is that they’re consequential, in that they weight their actions on what the best outcome appears to be to them, instead of which action in itself appears to be the most correct. I’m not a big fan of consequentialist ethical theories. Consequentialism seems to be ok in other areas, but it can drum up some nasty problems–at least I think they’re problems–when it comes to ethics. For instance, killing 99 people could be acceptable to a consequentialist if that doing so meant that another 100 people, who would otherwise die, would be spared. Very similar problems arise in consequentialist stances on abortion, like killing this “thing inside of me” is ok because it will make me, or others, feel better… Obviously, I’m being very general here, but a lot of people have similar arguments. I’d rather weigh the very act itself as right or wrong and then base my decision on that instead of figuring out which might have the “best” perceivable outcome.
Jokerine, so if you aren’t aware of certain rights that you have, or say an immigrant or tourist isn’t aware of certain rights that they have while in a certain country, does that mean they can be stripped of them?
Fancy Pants, that “autonomous, living, breathing, thinking, caring, AWARE human being” used to be in the same position as the fetus. Do you want to abort yourself right now? If so, why haven’t you? If not, would you then if you could decide?
are you retarded, i’m not a fetus anymore, i’m a HUMAN BEING. what you’re asking makes no sense at all.
i used to be an egg, that’s like asking “well you used to be an egg, if you chose to come out of a fallopian tube now, WOULD YOU???”
it’s irrelevant and makes no sense as a question.
A fetus isn’t autonomous. It isn’t an individual.
So it should be illegal because some Greek guy cant handle his emotions? If he committed suicide because she broke up with him, should ending a relationship be illegal?
If you are going to make numerical claims, source or STFU
I cant speak for everyone but I have never met a woman who said, “condoms or the pill are too much effort, I can just get an abortion”
Once again, your immaturity and and lack of empathy are on display. And rape/incest are the end all be all because those are the most EXTREME cases. Your belief that a woman should be forced to carry and give birth to a living breathing reminder or her rapist is fucked up. Have you ever been raped? I bet you would cry all day for months if you were ass raped. No amount of therapy your parents bought for you would help.
everything hallucination, everything coinsidence… I think this is bullshit, oh yes every brain has same halucination during clinical death. everyone see that same light at the end of the tunel how predictable! you know you can become hallucinologist you understand everything so good.
but I agree this is for another theard
I would say that’s different. You’re talking about a sentient being such as a tourist, whereas I’m talking about a being that has no awareness,say, the tourist’s hat 
Also, if I may answer a post that was not directed to me…
I would, and I say this with certainty, because of all the shit my parents put me through for not being wanted. I hate saying this stuff because it makes me sound like an attention whore, but really, not being wanted and knowing it - and being told so - can really destroy a child’s self-esteem. Why haven’t I ‘aborted’ myself? Well, because I am letting myself be carried away by the tides of daily life. So much shit I had to endure that I feel I don’t feel much anymore.
Blah blah blah, sorry about the emo-ness there 
what are you talking about? it TOTALLY makes sense for a woman to choose a $500 abortion every time she gets pregnant instead of $5 condoms or potentially free birth control pills. 
and knowing the exact situation and mindset of every single woman who has ever gotten an abortion ever, he can totally make claims like that with no actual facts to back him up!
hawkeye is a fucking idiot.
Note that you said “anymore”, and that was my only point: you used to be a fetus as well. No, you did not used to be an egg. You and your DNA were formed when the sperm fertilized the egg. Before that, there was no “you”, but merely a sperm with its attributes and an egg with its own. Their combining is where you came from.
Daniel, maybe to you, but not to me. See my response to Fancy Pants right above this line.
Can you point me to where I said that abortion should be illegal? I’ve repeatedly said that I’m against legislating it, I just personally think that it’s wrong. Also, as for the emotions part let me try the converse: so it should be OK for a woman to have an abortion because she can’t handle her emotions? I actually think that’s a retarded argument, but it fits perfectly into your little moral theory there.
Again, you missed my point. Even if people use the pill and condoms and it doesn’t work, and they have an abortion because it didn’t work, then that is STILL using it as a contraceptive. Secondly, are you seriously going to deny that the VAST majority of abortions are used that way? I mean… seriously? If you’re going to deny that, then I’d like to see your source. I didn’t source it because I thought it was common knowledge. I guess I was wrong.
Secondly, where exactly am I being immature and showing a lack of empathy? Why don’t you cite those instances for all of us to see.
Lastly, I’ve repeatedly said that I’d never force anyone to act in accordance with what I think to be right simply because I think it’s right. Hell, I’m not a fan of forcing anyone to do anything–ever. All I’m saying is that I think it’s the right thing. You don’t have to like it.
Actually, Jokerine the comparison still sticks. All you said was that the fetus wasn’t aware of any rights and therefore it doesn’t have any. Maybe you weren’t clear enough. If you want to separate humanity from the fetus, then that’s your own prerogative. Anyway, do patients in a coma/“vegetables” have no rights?
As far as the “emo-ness” goes, that’s alright, and I see your point. However, you always had the option to “abort” yourself, but you didn’t. If you’d abort yourself as a fetus because of that, why didn’t you abort yourself while it was happening? Also, humans can’t predict the future, so the fetus wouldn’t be able to base their decision on how your life ended up being.
…What? Of course I didn’t abort myself, I WAS A FETUS! I had no brain!
(And before you go saying that, hurr, yes that fetus was me and so on and so forth, I wouldn’t say, “it was a fetus”, just because of grammar.)
Potentiality arguments are not valid.
And by that you mean ‘actuality’ - an actual human, rather than a potential human.
Right, an actual human being is an actual human being. Something that only has the potential to be a human being isn’t an actual human being.
If you don’t understand potentiality, and i know you don’t - then Bur will explain it.
Jokerine, I meant “abort” yourself as in commit suicide.
I got ninja-ed…
I know the difference between potentiality and actuality, but actuality is merely the achievement of potentialities. My point earlier was that why is the current accepted “potentiality achievement” (which I think is living past the third trimester) any more valid than any other potentiality achievement? Why can’t we wait to call girls human until they have the ability to produce more humans (until they hit puberty). Why not wait until menopause, or death? Why is the third trimester more important than what got it to the third trimester? The third trimester–actually, all of it–wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for the act of conception wherein the egg was fertilized by a spermatozoid which created the human DNA and gender designation of the “thing”.
Right, well I guess I should then, if you say so.
and there was no ME until i was born, either. so again, it’s an entirely irrelevant question.
and killing yourself isn’t the same as removing something that IS NOT YET ALIVE that is feeding off of you.
you’re basically saying something that barely qualifies as alive and certainly doesn’t qualify as a person is worth more than a living female, which is why you are a misogynist.
There is a significant difference between someone that’s comatose and someone that’s braindead. This is such a ridiculous fallacy that’s STILL repeated by certain pro-life americans, even though it’s been made very clear over and over in public and private debate that it’s invalid.
And that’s the problem with issues like this - there are those involved in the debate that aren’t honest actors.
No, an actuality is an actuality, and a potentiality is a potentiality. They are not equivalent. They are not the same. To equate them is fundamentally incorrect.
Seriously, man, how hard is that to understand.
It’s not after clinical death, though. No one that has clinically died has ever come back to life.
By the way, if you’re a Christian, you’d see a tunnel of light. If you’re a member of another religion, however, you’d see something different. I.E.: What you’d expect to see.
Once again, all these comparisons to people that have already been born fall flat. Know why? Because all these people have been born.
Jokerine, I wasn’t saying you should or that you should have. All I’m saying that if you really think you would choose to do that as a fetus, then why didn’t you when you actually had the choice? I kind of think it’s because even though life sucks, you still want to live.
How does that make it irrelevant? Just saying it does isn’t magical and doesn’t make it so.
How is killing yourself any different than removing yourself? Actually, it is alive (obviously), you just don’t consider it a human. Even single-celled organisms are alive. Also, what does it feeding off of you have to do with killing stuff? We all feed. You feed off the earth; maybe it should abort you.
OK. :jizz:
Fine, if you want to know, it’s just because there are people who would feel sad (not relatives) if I died. And I’ve been raised to put other people’s feelings before mine by my parents because they didn’t want me to get in their way, since they were too cheap and didn’t want to spend money to abort me. So, I can’t bring myself to make those people who care sad. If it wasn’t because some people care, I would’ve killed myself long ago.
In order to bring this back to the topic, yes, if I had been aware of how much my parents didn’t want me and how bad I would make life for them and for myself, I would indeed have ‘aborted myself’ when I had the chance.