So I thought we could discuss this middle eastern bloodbath.
I’ll start the debate by saying that Israel should never have existed in the first place given the conditions of it’s foundations- and that a great many territories should be Arab (Due to history and demographics, for instance- upon partition in 1948 the Jewish settlers owned less than a tenth of the land in Palestine- but were given 56% by the UN). Israel ensued illegal annexations in following wars. (Though now it’s to late to completely revert.
Hamas though is as bad an entity, and both sides seem to have total disregard for civilian loss of life.
I also think our tax money shouldn’t be spent on supporting such a state.
There is no reason why Jews and Arab-Muslims can’t coexist peacefully in a same secular state, Zionism and to an extent the Islamist are to blame for the ongoing fighting.
Yes there is a reason that they can’t coexist. One group is Jewish and the other Muslim, and the Muslims have these radicals called “terrorists” who like killing people who don’t believe exactly as they believe. Israel needs to exists otherwise the Jewish people will be wiped out by said idiot extremists. All that needs to be done is set a definite border for Israel, which may include the supposedly “illegal” land they won in a war against religious idiots, and that is their land. If they win further land in wars they are provoked into entering, then that is their land as well.
As for us supporting them, we absolutely should, or they will be wiped of the map by idiots like Ahmadinejad.
And before you say that the Israelis killed civilians, Hamas was the one that put targets inside civilian areas. Israel had no choice, other than to just let themselves be bombarded.
Israel was born from Jewish terrorism and the murder of Britons.
Zionists are the same religious idiots, though simply believe that the land is Jewish- not Arab.
Before they were seen as extremists terrorists- and now we support them.
But why the devil should we do so?
Because idiots like Ahmedinejad will wipe them off the map?
Israel’s done a fine job of wiping the Arabs off the map however.
These muslim terrorists exist because of the shitworthy treatment Isarael has inflicted- making it understandable to an extent.
One needs to have a memory that spreads further than a decade to see the causes of Israelis inflicting Palestinian civilian casualties go further than Hamas rocket firings.
EDIT:The 67 and 48 wars were more than just “religious idiots” attacking the poor innocent peace loving zionists- in a horrific spout of idiocy and free hatred.
Too quick things first: I’m not talking about extremism that happened 50 years ago, I’m talking about now and I find it funny that you are talking about wiping Arabs of the map, and then show a map of a country surrounded by Arabs becoming Jewish.
The cause of this conflict is both the faults of the Jewish and Palestinians, but I choose to favor the side that doesn’t have a foothold anywhere else in the world, and that is threatened with extinction by countries with far greater populations. The best solution as I see it is to cap expansion, unless their territory is encroached or neighboring countries threaten war, and leave it at that.
However, this is never going to happen. The palestinians will never be happy until they own all of Israel, and will continue to fight for it, and thus peace will never be achieved. So, as I said, I pick the side of the group that is surrounded with countries desperate to destroy it, because it is at the very least no worse than the competition, and in reality a good deal better.
This issue isn’t nearly as black and white as most people seem to think.
My stance is, regardless of the past or what you think the future should be for that reason, the first thing that needs to happen is Israel needs to start respecting international law with respect to expansion.
While I agree to an extent, that will by no means solve the problem. Ultimately this is an unwinable war, unless we see mass genocide of 7.5 million+ people.
Its the first step in solving the problem. You’re right that it’s an unwinnable war for either side, it’s only going to be solved by peaceful negotiation of an autonomous palestinian state brokered through third parties, and with heavy pressure on Israel from the US with our military aid on the line.
Ultimately I think Israel/Palestine are going to have a Berlin Wall moment, and as an ethnic Jew I sincerely hope that the proverbial wall comes down after at least a decade of peaceful coexistance, rather than after another decade of this eye-for-an-eye violence.
I question whether returning the Palestinian’s land would bring even temporary peace. Groups like Hamas would not stop until Israel is destroyed, and they have a wide influence, and Israel’s close proximity to their bases of operation would mean that massive terrorist attacks would be much easier. Israel would just find itself fighting another, possibly more costly, war.
I question whether Hamas “would not stop until Israel is destroyed.” In fact their leadership has declared that they will recognize Israel if it withdraws to the '67 borders.
But do you really trust their word? And not only that, even if they stop, Israel will attract terrorists from all over the Mideast. Ultimately, Israel will be at peace when the mideast is at peace, and no action they will do can cause mid-east peace.
Thats the definition of negotiating in good faith.
The existence of an autonomous Palestinian state would be the most powerful blow to terrorist recruitment in recent history. Israel’s occupation of Gaza/Palestine is one of the most significant factors in radicalizing Muslims. Even our own mild-mannered forum Muslim, Shadi, says that good Muslims should fight against Israel because of Gaza.
We disagree, I believe if they stop the seige of Gaza and halt expansion into the occupied territories, that’s the first step towards comprehensive mideast peace.
i think US aid should be pulled though. 60 years of military freebies is enough now. It’s not like Israel doesn’t have the funds to fight their own wars. the US as well as germany and other western countries should cut off their aid.
It’s also a little unrealistic to think that this problem will be solved so simply, these religious factions have been at war over their holy soil since their inceptions. Both sides seem to be doing what ever it takes to win, with no regard for human rights or civilian casualties. In turn, both religions are violating their creeds. In Islam, it is said that if you kill one Innocent, it’s like killing the whole world. In Judaism, God through Moses clearly states that murder is wrong. Ultimatally, we should have no part in their blood feud.
Maybe after a year of Foreign Aid cut-off, then the US, along with the UN can try to negotiate with both parties, but right now, peace talks only delay inevitable wars.
We should drop a shitload of bombs along the border of Israel and shear off the land from the Middle Eastern Penninsula, creating an island that is no longer part of the mid east and can claim it for its own.
Genius.
Who do you mean by we?
Actually, Israel has illegally annexed some land near the West Bank border. It’s mostly occupied by extremists who believe that the West Bank belongs to Israel though. But it is true that the land that they have now was won in wars, which they defended several times. They also used to control the whole of the Sinai peninsula for a while.
My Global Studies class just finished a unit on this conflict.
:S
Can I go to my Grandmother’s old house and tell the people living there now to get off my land since I lived there before and God told me it was mine? Sweet!
or
Nuke everyone. Problem solved.
That land can be given back. I’m talking about the land that Israel gained in wars, that many Palestinians believe to be theirs.
Funny that you put “illegal” in quotes - in fact it is explicitly illegal to take territory by war under international law.
Which I question. If someone goes to war against a nation, and that nation wins (yes, Israel attacked first, that doesn’t mean they started it), then any land they claimed belongs to them. But that is a debate for elsewhere.
Also, to counter a previous point, terrorist recruiting would be hurt among Palestinians, but elsewhere in the mideast there would be no difference, and Israel would remain an enemy if only because it has close ties to the US.
It doesn’t matter if you “question” it, the law exists, and international law has to be the basis for third party negotiations or else the solution will never be seen as legitimate by the international community.
That’s ridiculous. Our token forum Muslim, Shadi, is from JORDAN, and he openly says its ok to kill Jewish kids that are conscripted into the Israeli army because of Gaza.