September 11 Quran Burning

[Seba]

@Fancy Pants

that’s all very nice and all, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing to do with what i said. you don’t own your country. other people have just as much of a right to it as you do.

I don’t understand your reasoning. Imagine that you and some group of people crashed on a desert island. No help is coming, so you start building shelters, dividing tasks, and so on. Now one of the survivors is a total slacker who only take advantage of others work, do nothing to help and is aggressive towards other people. Now, do you think that the group have the right to expel that person from their little community? I think definitely yes! They “own” the place where they started their community, so they can force somebody to leave it (which doesn’t matter anyway, because a big smoke will come in the end and kill them all).

@Burbinator

So the ideal government to you is a fascist police state?

OK, I slightly exaggerated, but I still hold my opinion that in some cases the best way to achieve peaceful coexistence is by restricting the law. For instance, if we hadn’t law at all, our coexistence definitely wouldn’t be peaceful.

@Burbinator

Yes we would, because of GENERALIZATION and PREJUDICES. Immigrants don’t break laws any more than natives.
When an immigrant does it, though, it gets blown out of proportion and is seen as an example of how bad these foreigners are.

This is a faulty assumption. You should consider who emigrate in the first place - in majority, these are people who don’t have any perspective for better life in their own country, very likely low-educated, people that very often come from poor family (and I mean massive emigration, like the one which took place after UK opened their borders in 2004). And guess who is more likely to commit crime, people with no perspectives in life or people that have a good job and some purpose in their life?

@Burbinator

Have you? There was no such thing as immigration laws until well into the twentieth century.

You know, two centuries ago possibilities for a transport across a continent where considerably limited. How would they migrate, by foot???

@Burbinator

Yes, and this division and these fights for territory were by and large caused and lead by the leaders of a people, i.e. a king, a tribal elder, whatever. These things happen because of power play, on which the general populace has rarely had any real impact.

That’s a bullshit, considering that Rome started building their empire when they had the Senate with the support of Roman citizens. And the divisions are something natural - people have the need to identify with some group. When there is a lot of immigrants which doesn’t integrate with locals you have two groups on the same “territory”. This only asks for trouble.

@acade366

And you think that as a nation, every citizen of your country has exactly the same opinion on who should be allowed to enter and who shouldn’t?

Of course not, so that’s why it’s important to debate on this topic. And believe me, there is a lot of people who think the same way as I do.

[bur]

@Seba

I don’t understand your reasoning. Imagine that you and some group of people crashed on a desert island. No help is coming, so you start building shelters, dividing tasks, and so on. Now one of the survivors is a total slacker who only take advantage of others work, do nothing to help and is aggressive towards other people. Now, do you think that the group have the right to expel that person from their little community? I think definitely yes! They “own” the place where they started their community, so they can force somebody to leave it (which doesn’t matter anyway, because a big smoke will come in the end and kill them all).

That is a completely different issue.

@Seba

This is a faulty assumption. You should consider who emigrate in the first place - in majority, these are people who don’t have any perspective for better life in their own country, very likely low-educated, people that very often come from poor family (and I mean massive emigration, like the one which took place after UK opened their borders in 2004). And guess who is more likely to commit crime, people with no perspectives in life or people that have a good job and some purpose in their life?

Get your head out of your ass. People who emigrate are people who don’t have any opportunities for a decent life in their own country. Whether they’re poor or not has no bearing on their will to make a living. Besides, there are lots of well-educated people who migrate as well.

@Seba

You know, two centuries ago possibilities for a transport across a continent where considerably limited. How would they migrate, by foot???

Ever heard of massive migrations? The Germanic one? You know, where they invaded Rome? Early humans migrating out of Africa?

@Seba

That’s a bullshit, considering that Rome started building their empire when they had the Senate with the support of Roman citizens. And the divisions are something natural - people have the need to identify with some group. When there is a lot of immigrants which doesn’t integrate with locals you have two groups on the same “territory”. This only asks for trouble.

If you really believe Rome was a democracy, you’re just naive.
And it only causes trouble when the natives make an issue out of it.

[Fancy_Pants]

@Seba

I don’t understand your reasoning. Imagine that you and some group of people crashed on a desert island. No help is coming, so you start building shelters, dividing tasks, and so on. Now one of the survivors is a total slacker who only take advantage of others work, do nothing to help and is aggressive towards other people. Now, do you think that the group have the right to expel that person from their little community? I think definitely yes! They “own” the place where they started their community, so they can force somebody to leave it (which doesn’t matter anyway, because a big smoke will come in the end and kill them all).

sorry, i guess i didn’t realize you were the founder of your country and every single immigrant ever acted exactly the same. since that’s the only way that comparison would be in any way relevant.

[Mr.Shadow]

@Burbinator

If you really believe Rome was a democracy, you’re just naive.

Actually Rome was like a democracy until Julius Caesar.

[papernick]

@Fancy Pants

sorry, i guess i didn’t realize … every single immigrant ever acted exactly the same.

this.

[Someonerandm]

@Mr.Shadow

Actually Rome was like a democracy until Julius Caesar.

Kind of. It was technically a democracy, but who could vote was so limited it would not be considered “free” by modern standards.

[Seba]

@Fancy Pants

sorry, i guess i didn’t realize you were the founder of your country and every single immigrant ever acted exactly the same. since that’s the only way that comparison would be in any way relevant.

Founding of my country? There wasn’t a single moment in time when my country was founded, development of my country is an ongoing process and even now I can participate in it in some way by paying taxes. This gives me the right to demand for actions that have an impact on the society I live in. Besides, country is not only an infrastructure but also traditions, local customs and common history. Because of massive immigration all of this could just fade away. And “every single immigrant ever acted exactly the same”? Come on, I’m not so retarded to think that every single immigrant is a thief, skulk, or something worse. It doesn’t matter how many of them are like that - this could be 60%, 40%, or 20%, the point is that if we can eliminate those who would cause problems (and save our culture by the way) by restricting the immigration law, that’s a good solution, even if the “good ones” won’t be able to settle in my country.

@Burbinator

Get your head out of your ass. People who emigrate are people who don’t have any opportunities for a decent life in their own country. Whether they’re poor or not has no bearing on their will to make a living.

But when someone cannot make a living in a legal way, there is a big change that he will start to earn money in a more “creative” way. People when migrate doesn’t change their habits just like that, when somebody is a thief in his own country he will still be a thief in a foreign country. There are many immigrants who just don’t want to go to work and are draining the social money - the level of living is still quite enough for them, so why bother? They are just social parasites.

@Burbinator

Besides, there are lots of well-educated people who migrate as well.

This is not an argument at all - they are not the problem.

@Burbinator

Ever heard of massive migrations? The Germanic one? You know, where they invaded Rome? Early humans migrating out of Africa?

And this should prove what? That migrations of people don’t have negative effects on other nations??? Oh, just the Roman empire felt appart because of it, no biggie. And it wasn’t the first time that bad things happened because of migration - Sea People for example made a real mess in Syria and destroyed the Hettite empire. Oh, and migration of people out of Africa would be a nice argument if it didn’t take thousands of years.

@Burbinator

If you really believe Rome was a democracy, you’re just naive.

Well, so you’re telling me that now we DO have a real democracy???

[Fancy_Pants]

@Seba

Founding of my country? There wasn’t a single moment in time when my country was founded, development of my country is an ongoing process and even now I can participate in it in some way by paying taxes. This gives me the right to demand for actions that have an impact on the society I live in. Besides, country is not only an infrastructure but also traditions, local customs and common history. Because of massive immigration all of this could just fade away. And “every single immigrant ever acted exactly the same”? Come on, I’m not so retarded to think that every single immigrant is a thief, skulk, or something worse. It doesn’t matter how many of them are like that - this could be 60%, 40%, or 20%, the point is that if we can eliminate those who would cause problems (and save our culture by the way) by restricting the immigration law, that’s a good solution, even if the “good ones” won’t be able to settle in my country.

so basically you’re so attached to your “culture” that you’re willing to deny millions of people basic human rights? what about THEIR culture? if it’s being destroyed, don’t they have a right to preserve it? culture changes over time, traditions change over time, local customs change over time.

the “saving your culture” is racist xenophobic bullshit as well.

[bur]

@Seba

I can participate in it in some way by paying taxes. This gives me the right to demand for actions that have an impact on the society I live in.

So you agree that legal immigrants who pay taxes have a right to demand a say in things that have an impact on the society they live in, regardless of how they integrate or what they do for a living? Good.

@Seba

But when someone cannot make a living in a legal way, there is a big change that he will start to earn money in a more “creative” way. People when migrate doesn’t change their habits just like that, when somebody is a thief in his own country he will still be a thief in a foreign country.

Seriously, what? Not all people that don’t have any opportunity to make a decent living resort to crime. And even then, stealing out of necessity (you know, survival) doesn’t make you a criminal, let alone a habitual one.

@Seba

There are many immigrants who just don’t want to go to work and are draining the social money - the level of living is still quite enough for them, so why bother? They are just social parasites.

That is such bullshit. People who migrate do so because they want to make a better life for themselves, which includes actually doing something with their lives. More often than not this includes having to support a family, in some cases a family that still lives in the country of origin.
Besides, I’m willing to bet that the proportional difference between native and immigrant “parasites” is negligible.

@Seba

This is not an argument at all - they are not the problem.

Oh, so well-educated people somehow have more right to a good life than others?

@Seba

And this should prove what? That migrations of people don’t have negative effects on other nations??? Oh, just the Roman empire felt appart because of it, no biggie. And it wasn’t the first time that bad things happened because of migration - Sea People for example made a real mess in Syria and destroyed the Hettite empire. Oh, and migration of people out of Africa would be a nice argument if it didn’t take thousands of years.

My point was that MIGRATION ISN’T NEW and that only recently in human history has it become such an issue as to be a crime.
By the way, the Roman empire didn’t fall apart because of the Germanic migration. The Roman empire was already falling apart, which is why they were able to overthrow the Roman empire… If I remember correctly, they were perfectly willing to settle peacefully, only they weren’t allowed to, which is why they applied violence in the first place.

[Seba]

@Fancy Pants

so basically you’re so attached to your “culture” that you’re willing to deny millions of people basic human rights? what about THEIR culture? if it’s being destroyed, don’t they have a right to preserve it? culture changes over time, traditions change over time, local customs change over time.

I see that you are completely into this “save entire planet” crap. Why should I care for some other culture when it can destroy mine? THEY should take care of themselves and not rely on others’ help. We have a saying: “give somebody a finger and he will take your entire arm” - sacrificing yourself to help others isn’t just worth it. Anyway, which “basic human rights” are you talking about? A right to migrate???

@Fancy Pants

the “saving your culture” is racist xenophobic bullshit as well.

Are you sure you know what “racist” mean? A will to preserve my culture, something that in some way identify myself, is racist? Gimme a break…

@Burbinator

So you agree that legal immigrants who pay taxes have a right to demand a say in things that have an impact on the society they live in, regardless of how they integrate or what they do for a living? Good.

Like I said, in my country there is no many immigrants at the moment, so this doesn’t concerns me. I’m more worried about the future. And this what you are talking about is also a threat, because when immigrants grow into a large number their vote will start to matter, so they could enforce a law that is good for them and not necessarily good for others. This happens when immigrants DON’T INTEGRATE.

@Burbinator

Seriously, what? Not all people that don’t have any opportunity to make a decent living resort to crime. And even then, stealing out of necessity (you know, survival) doesn’t make you a criminal, let alone a habitual one.

Survival is rarely cause of stealing (at least in Europe). More likely it’s a will for better living standards (a new TV, a nice celly, a car, etc.). Besides, you don’t have to break the law to exploit foreign society - like already mentioned unemployment benefit, or other forms of social financing. These are probably much more common than crimes. And again, I know that not all people would do that, but the problem is that many would.

@Burbinator

That is such bullshit. People who migrate do so because they want to make a better life for themselves, which includes actually doing something with their lives. More often than not this includes having to support a family, in some cases a family that still lives in the country of origin.

Good for them, but not all are like that.

@Burbinator

Besides, I’m willing to bet that the proportional difference between native and immigrant “parasites” is negligible.

It all depends on the culture. I know that, because I myself leave in a country where people try to wangle wherever they can. There must be a gene for that or something…

@Burbinator

Oh, so well-educated people somehow have more right to a good life than others?

No, well-educated people are more likely to integrate with locals and to respect local laws, and in general are easier to cope with.

@Burbinator

My point was that MIGRATION ISN’T NEW and that only recently in human history has it become such an issue as to be a crime.

And my point, at the beginning, was that it’s natural for a group to possess a territory, so I don’t know what migration have to do with it.

[bur]

@Seba

I see that you are completely into this “save entire planet” crap. Why should I care for some other culture when it can destroy mine?

Empathy? Equality? Maybe you’re just too arrogant and self-involved to care about anyone else.

@Seba

THEY should take care of themselves and not rely on others’ help. We have a saying: “give somebody a finger and he will take your entire arm” - sacrificing yourself to help others isn’t just worth it.

Except that most poverty and political upheaval was and is caused by the Western world.

@Seba

Anyway, which “basic human rights” are you talking about? A right to migrate???

The right to nutrition, the right to shelter, the right to education, the right to safety, … I could go on.

@Seba

Are you sure you know what “racist” mean? A will to preserve my culture, something that in some way identify myself, is racist? Gimme a break…

No, but denying others the same thing out of sheer arrogance leans pretty damn close to racism.

@Seba

Like I said, in my country there is no many immigrants at the moment, so this doesn’t concerns me. I’m more worried about the future. And this what you are talking about is also a threat, because when immigrants grow into a large number their vote will start to matter, so they could enforce a law that is good for them and not necessarily good for others. This happens when immigrants DON’T INTEGRATE.

Now you’re contradicting yourself. Before you said that paying taxes gives you the right to take action to have an influence on the society you live in.
I guess people who weren’t born there or whose parents weren’t born there are a special case? This reeks of bigotry.

@Seba

Survival is rarely cause of stealing (at least in Europe). More likely it’s a will for better living standards (a new TV, a nice celly, a car, etc.).

You obviously have no idea of what the world is like. I am 100% sure the vast majority of thefts in the world are for food and survival and not for luxury.

@Seba

Besides, you don’t have to break the law to exploit foreign society - like already mentioned unemployment benefit, or other forms of social financing. These are probably much more common than crimes. And again, I know that not all people would do that, but the problem is that many would.

No, most wouldn’t. Some would. Just like some natives would and do.

@Seba

Good for them, but not all are like that.

The point is that the MAJORITY IS LIKE THAT.

@Seba

No, well-educated people are more likely to integrate with locals and to respect local laws, and in general are easier to cope with.

And you know this how? I thought you had next to no experience with immigrants.

@Seba

And my point, at the beginning, was that it’s natural for a group to possess a territory, so I don’t know what migration have to do with it.

Migration was what started all this?
BTW, historically, territories involve the leaders of the territory, and not the people actually living on the territory.

Oh and I just realized how silly this breaking up of posts is, so I’m going to stop doing it.

[E-Nelson]

whole page too long to read. didnt bother.

[DeleteThis]

And that sir is why the United States is full of close-minded xenophobes who have never moved more then 50 miles away from their birth place

[bur]

@E-Nelson

whole page too long to read. didnt bother.

then why bother posting an utterly useless statement no one cares about?

[xalener]

Fucking whites.

[Someonerandm]

People are just generally annoying.

[JeffMOD]

^ This.
/thread.

[E-Nelson]

@Someonerandm

People are just generally annoying.

more liek this

[bur]

fucking humans

[Fancy_Pants]

@Seba

I see that you are completely into this “save entire planet” crap. Why should I care for some other culture when it can destroy mine? THEY should take care of themselves and not rely on others’ help. We have a saying: “give somebody a finger and he will take your entire arm” - sacrificing yourself to help others isn’t just worth it. Anyway, which “basic human rights” are you talking about? A right to migrate???

a right to make a decent life for themselves wherever they choose to. and funny you’d say that, seeing as you’re trying to destroy their culture by not wanting them to practice it just because it’s on a piece of land owned by the same people who own the piece of land you just HAPPENED to be born on.

@Bluemen230

And that sir is why the United States is full of close-minded xenophobes who have never moved more then 50 miles away from their birth place

oh, the ignorance and irony in this post. i have never met a single person who hasn’t been more than 50 miles away from their birthplace. unless you mean was instead of is, and “in the 1800s” at the end of it.