For A2 though, that map was awesome.
There’s probably more npcs in A2 alone than probably the entire original OaR chapter in Black Mesa (which I think is where your problems with the budget came from Text).
But the way you set up the fights and how enemies kept spawning around the map (seemingly at random), and how action could be going on around the map in places that you might not even be at the moment was pretty neat. And I love the cafeteria now. Don’t know what it was before, but it fits well now.
Plus you left some exploration in which was cool; since A1 basically had none. The map is just right like the original it’s based off of. :jizz:
Thought the map was perfect gameplay wise.
Some things though:
First off, this map needs more ammo scaterred around (not too much though).
This .50 cal was sort of broken.
By the time I got to it the gun was stuck in this position and I couldn’t turn it (but it could still fire).
One thing about this area that’s weird was how the headcrabs were just randomly sitting there waiting for you. Maybe you could screw with the player a bit here and have them jump out of some of the nearby vents and attack.
One thing that looked off in the offices was how the ceiling was misaligned in a lot of places. You might try finding a better texture to use or put more detail into to the ceiling.
You might want to change this ceiling texture to just a flat concrete one.
Same for the other bridge next to it.
And a while back someone brought up how you cut out that one scene with the grunt fighting off the horde of headcrabs at the bottom of the silo in Half-Life’s version.
And then another person complained how Black Mesa’s silo doesn’t really have a bottom and it just seems to be a black hole in the map.
In Black Mesa you have this ladder in the silo which leads down into the pit, but it’s blocked off. Maybe for your version it would give you an opportunity to add this scene back in here. (And put some extra supplies in)
For what it’s worth, I’ve also had the problem where one of the fights would end in mostly Vorts. The MG fight, on my first run through, ended with only one or two Vorts left, but the one below the Cafeteria area was… I think around 6, 7 Vorts and no Marines?
I didn’t actually count the bodies at the first one, and at the second one, though I did feel like something was off, I had used an SMG grenade so I had no idea what the exact number was
I don’t remember for certain, so I could be wrong, but are there any moments in Black Mesa’s official levels where they do this?
I seem to recall a few Vorts I’ve run into who either didn’t notice me or reacted sluggishly… I don’t know if it’s connected, but there definitely seems to be a difference between how fast Vorts react compared to other NPCs.
Just to clarify, for A2 - The converging tracks are the area with the MG, right? And the end track is the area below the cafeteria?
A1:
It’s possible to become trapped (requiring noclip) by walking into these areas, especially if crouching (just those spots specifically; everywhere else along the track seems fine).
A2:
Just before the office battle, if you throw a grenade up these stairs, it can trigger the music before you actually go up. I assume it’s because it’s triggered by the door opening, which the HECU open by running toward it away from the grenade. It should either be impossible for the door to be opened by NPCs, or the music trigger should have an additional requirement of the player actually being at the doorway.
I did my first test run and I didn’t have many problems, it played very well for an alpha. I did not see a second tram so I assume you haven’t added it yet (I was going to test the double tram bug). Most of what I have are minor nitpicks, but I’ll go ahead anyway:
The platform below is actually an elevator, but maybe it’s not clear aside from the railings it’s connected to. Maybe he could add one of those elevator control panels on it (non-functional though).
This is going to sound REALLY stupid (so forgive me please), but if it’s an elevator, why don’t they just have one door (assuming you go in the front of the bottom), and then just have a regular wall on the upper level?
What I mean is, is there a point of having a “secure access” kind of door that you know will be perma-locked, in comparison to just have a wall texture in its place?
Or I’m just missing the point entirely I don’t know, I’ll have to play through this.
It’s to make the place look bigger than it really is.
And yeah it struck me as odd that there’s so much space below the actual elevator. Which means that Text must have atleast tried the idea of putting that scene in where you fight the grunts while rising on the lift.
(Personally I wouldn’t mind having it even with the earlier lift though it doesn’t make much sense)
I’ll preface all of this by saying right now: A1 ain’t changing, nor do I think it needs any serious reworking at this point. Even if it did I probably wouldn’t be willing to, given how far along in development it is.
You should also bear in mind that A1 only exists because it’s a segment cut out of A2 because I was hitting entity limits. The question “why does this map exist,” is a little irrelevant in this context, as a result. It wasn’t originally intended as its own product. I really don’t want to waste development time working on something which is in reality, just a short introduction both to A2 and to the wider rail elements which will be used for the B maps. It’s pretty short for an entire map, yeah. But oh well. It wasn’t intended as a complete recreation of A as Black Mesa already remade most of A. Just incorporating some of its missing elements and introducing the player to the loop and track switching elements which they will encounter later and more frequently on the B maps. It makes sense to introduce these gameplay elements early on in the chapter rather than throw them at the player later. Just think of it this way - if A1 and A2 were one whole map you wouldn’t have a problem with it at all. Less than ideal circumstances resulted in me needing to separate them, so here we are now. I probably could stand to expand the A1 map a bit - but that time and energy could be better spent developing the B maps well.
Your arguments against A1 are put forth on the basis that the linear pathing in A1 is worse designed than the linear pathing in HL1’s A, which I find baffling. A’s path required to reach the crane controls was ridiculous. Not only was the path to reach the crane controls located absolutely miles away from the crane itself, but it required you to figure out the two interlocking loops which was just totally counter-intuitive and really artificially lengthened as a result - creating frustration and confusion. Simply put - there’s a good reason why it was so unpopular. The crane path was in such a dumb location that there’s no way people would have gone looking there for it specifically.
I’m simplifying elements the same way Black Mesa did for the rest of On a Rail. If you don’t like that, I’m afraid that’s just the way it is - it was a design principle I’d made pretty clear I was using from the onset.
It took you 3 minutes because you did the equivalent of a speedrun.
I’m assuming that you’re a skilled player who already largely knew the layout of the map beforehand - due to your participation in this thread. Normal gameplay would never take just 3 minutes, especially for someone playing it “blind” on their first time - and even moreso if they were taking the time to explore the side areas. That’s one of the reasons I quite like the way OaR is designed in Black Mesa - people have that choice. There’s enough exploration on A1 to be satisfactory too. I agree, it’s not ideal - if I had time there’d be more - but for what wasn’t ever intended to be a full map anyway, there’s certainly enough. I’ve added a few side areas and interesting battles for the player to come across. One of my aims with OaR Uncut was to reduce the on-tram exploration, which often ended up being confusing and annoying in HL1, and increasing the relative amount of on-foot exploration, which I have done.
That’s why I dislike this statement:
“Plus you left some exploration in which was cool; since A1 basically had none.”
It’s inaccurate. There’s plenty of exploration in A1 relative to its overall content. There are plenty of hidden goodies and interesting places. It’s just the map itself doesn’t have a great deal of content, for reasons I’ve already explained.
I apologize if it seems like I was writing this post with the intention of attacking your opinions, that’s not how it is at all. If you don’t like A1, fair enough. I’m just trying to put it into perspective, and defend my work. Hopefully this wall I’ve written here will help others who might have a problem with it understand a little bit better where I was coming from.
Anyway - onto your other points.
The light coronas, or sprites (the glows around the lights) were used seriously inconsistently in Black Mesa’s OaR. Sometimes they’re really bright and opaque, other times they’re not. Just run through the B map looking at the type of light you highlighted specifically and you’ll see what I mean. I just kept mine consistently bright. Haven’t heard any other complaints about it yet. Though I do aim for seamless integration with Black Mesa, this doesn’t mean I need to copy all their flaws too. If I get more complaints about it, I might make the coronas uniformly darker, but I quite like them the way they are, and it’s not really that inconsistent with Black Mesa - where their use of the sprites is really inconsistent anyway.
The rest of what you’ve posted I pretty much agree 100% with and will strive to fix - aside from the bit about editing the area beneath the rocket on BM’s B map. I don’t plan on making any major changes to the B map aside from editing the ending to restore some missing sections. It’s already very close to the entity limit and I don’t want to push it much further.
Thank you for taking the time to write this feedback, I appreciate it (even if I don’t necessarily agree with all of it!), and I hope my reply has been satisfactory.
I don’t really recall any points in Black Mesa’s maps where the Vorts do stuff like that, at least not off the top of my head. But Black Mesa very rarely used Vorts in 3 way fights anyway, and I’m assuming that’s where the problem lies - because they only seem to act really dumb there. The only ones I can think of immediately are the fights on OaR’s B map, and the one on Forget About Freeman.
I do think it’s some kind of AI issue, however. Like I said, I treat the Vorts the exact same as any other NPC, and all the other NPCs behave just fine, in all situations.
The converging tracks bit has the 50 cal, yeah. And the end track is the area below the cafeteria.
Probably forgot the playerclip brush there. Easily fixable.
That’s weird. Never got that bug before. You’re right, the door opening is what triggers the battle relay. Can fix it by severing the AI node connection between that room and the hallway. Cheers.
All good suggestions - all will be fixed. Aside from the second tram, which by this point is sadly not feasible. Sadly, the necessity for backtracking may just have to end up being an unavoidable flaw in the design. I’m so close to the entity limit that adding a new area would push it over the edge without a shadow of a doubt. I may in future versions simply remove the electrified water if players get frustrated by the need to backtrack.
Let’s say you’re on the top level, and you need to be on the middle level. You call the elevator, get on it with your tram, and go down to the middle level. Congratulations, you’re now on the middle level! The rail from the top level would be on the other side of the door. As LieutenentSkully said, it’s to provide the illusion of size. I was originally going to have a few levels visible below the one you’re on too - but - entity count. That’s why there’s so much space below but not enough above. I’ll also move the doors further apart to solve the space issue.
I’m not sure if this is too small of a thought to make a post with, but TextFAMGUY, you’re awesome. I don’t even know you, but I seriously respect you as a person and wish you the best in life. May the maps flow forever.
Good points.
I’m not exactly sure what I was expecting when I went into it (I guess it was that this was going to try to stay 100% faithful to the original maps for some odd reason) but in the end I loved it.
I wasn’t trying to speed through it but it did only take me seconds to figure out where everything was while on the tracks.
Maybe following the thread did or didn’t have something to do with it, but either way it’s a pretty short map with nothing major going on and it does feel kind of ‘empty’ (and I guess for obvious reasons based on what you posted).
Looking at the layout for A1 again I guess this explains in part why you designed it the way it is (even though I still don’t really agree with it completely; but like I said earlier, can’t please everyone :fffuuu
Either way overall it’s pretty amazing for an alpha.
Hopefully you can fix the existing issues without any other major problems popping up.
Plus there’s also the B maps coming so those should be really interesting.
Right, entity limit, forgot the tram needed those when I mentioned that. It’d suck to lose the electric water, as I like it.
I think the Office Complex could use a bit of a workover, I admit I get disoriented in there and often lose sight of my goal (literally). One reason was having lockers on both floors (I didn’t realise there were 2 sets of lockers until the second run, which probably threw me off the first time). I’m not quite sure how to improve it though. Perhaps the use of landmarks could help some, I’m not sure what you could use though. You could also play with the lights some more, have brighter or coloured lights at objectives (security office, door back to tram).
For example, these lights outside the security office do us no favours, they look like any other light in the complex. Yet this red light will draw the player’s attention from afar, only to lead us to an empty janitor’s closet with no real purpose. Maybe consider removing the red light from the storage room and placing it outside the security office instead. Alternatively, you can set up a couple bright lights like this one to draw the player’s attention to it, a shining light in the dimness of the office. Last of all, the exit back to the rails. The door you need is unlit, in fact, attention is drawn completely away from the path to the rails by the lights along the roof and at the end of the hall. A bright light like the one I just mentioned above the door should do very well to draw the player’s attention and show them the way.
Speaking of lights, I feel like having the light orb things on the long florescent lights just looks silly. You could cut down on the entity limit a fair bit by removing them off those types of lights and I doubt it’ll look too bad (imo it’d probly look better).
Then, some additional issues I’ve noticed.
The gap rails here looks too large, it’d probably derail any tram passing over it.
Consider ‘freezing’ the stash here. I used an SMG Grenade to help clear out the soldiers and half the supplies flew away (some fell under the elevator).
The Bullsquid in the bathrooms was stark black after death (I did not see him before death because I used a grenade).
The door in the unfinished room is wooden, while it’s counterparts are metal.
Zombies did not attack Vorts, and vice-versa. Not sure why, could be BM’s coding (are they ever together?). I think you can fix that with ai_relationships.
Pressing this panel will keep activating the ‘thud’ and soldier voice, but will not respawn the soldiers or do anything else.
It’s possible to permanantly lose your tram (tram does not load with the next map if it gets away). Is it possible to force the ‘fail safe’ just for that segment?
The only problem I can think of aside from workload (would it be worth the saved entities?) would be how to manage the catwalk. Maybe it could be worked around with a some info_landmark, and chainlink fencing to cage it in (like some catwalks in Residue Processing have), or it could be removed (which would be unfortunate as it’s a very nice catwalk).
I’m running through these fights again to check and see if there’s some sort of pattern to how the fights are turning out.
The A1 Bullsquid room is ending with at least one of the Bullsquids left alive.
In the converging tracks section, there were around 5 or 6 Vorts standing in the “centre area” of the arena, the one behind the MG Marine, and two more hiding behind pillars on the other end of the level. I don’t know if this is responsible, but I did notice that the MG Marine wasn’t firing at any of the Vorts, he was just standing there.
The conference room fight consistently turns out with 2 or 3 HECU’s left and no Vorts.
The storage room fight is ending with either a small group (2/3) of Marines or a small group of Vorts.
The end track seems to be the most varied. When I jump down from the Cafeteria area, it seems to go in the HECU’s favour.
However, when I get there from the office complex… That’s where things get interesting.
If I walk down the stairs after the fight starts, it usually ends with 2 or 3 Marines.
If I walk down the stairs immediately, then it usually ends with half a dozen Vorts.
What seems to be happening - though I could be wrong, of course - is that the Vorts who teleport in don’t warp in right away. Before they can, the Vorts that are already there overwhelm the Marines.
Even then, it’s still really variable what actually happens in this area.
Standing on the tracks seems to make it harder for the Vorts to locate you. If I moved around a lot, they’d start attacking again. Not sure what’s going on here.
I for one thought A1 was brilliant. It’s like a hazard course (if you will) to introduce the types of challenges you’ll encounter in TEXT’s maps. It had a nice atmosphere and a fair amount of places to explore. I like A1 as it is. As for the red and white lights around the curve, I also liked that. Not that I’m a yes man, but I truly liked it. As for A2, I found that there’s almost no backtracking to do. After you flipped the switch in the security office there’s stairs leading down to a door blocked off by crates and walla, you’re very close to the tram. I thought that was a very clever edit.
I get attached (so to speak) to my tram and want to take that particular tram across the whole journey. Not take a second one just because I hate walking back.
TEXT, the cafeteria looks awesome now! The plants and the hole in the floor right next to the sink is a little strange though.
Just played through OaR Uncut Alpha and was very impressed. It’s very polished for an alpha release.
Here are my observations, suggestions and feedback. Some of these issues may have already been reported by others, but better to be doubly sure to have them looked into and possibly addressed. I also realize this is an alpha release, nevertheless, it’s best to bring these issues to light now, in the early stages of development. As well, there are still lots of items that I feel can be removed without impacting on the look and mood of the levels, while at the same time helping reduce issues related to the high entity count.
Feedback For OaR Uncut Alpha
Tram green light illumination looks odd. https://i.imgur.com/qwA53jp.jpg. This occurs in map c2a2a1 but not in map c2a2a2
[COLOR=‘Orange’]EDIT: Disregard item #1
Shadow for wooden crate on top shelf always apparent, whether flickering light is on or off. https://i.imgur.com/zSHDGMF.jpg
Can blood decals be added to the rear of these filing cabinets? https://i.imgur.com/gn5GHlk.jpg. They’re too pristine for the amount of blood present in the area.
Consider removing one of the three gray garbage containers. Redundant object. https://i.imgur.com/ecAerGf.jpg.
[COLOR=‘Orange’]EDIT: Item #6. For consistency reasons, I rescinded my suggestion to remove the defective light above the door, Feb 18/13.
Opened door panel hinges have z-fighting issues. See attached pictures 1 and 2 below. Same applies to the opened door panel hinges for the adjacent ones, here https://i.imgur.com/8PtfAvd.jpg.
Re: Conference Room A.
a) Design wise, the installed lighting fixtures seem inadequate for such a large room. Consider adding another row of fluorescent lighting. They don’t need to be illuminated, just so that the lighting design is more appropriate for the room. Remove these two wall lights, as they are the only ones in the entire room. https://i.imgur.com/lsxecjZ.jpg
b) Consider removing some of the filing cabinets. There are too many.
c) Consider replacing the beige 5-drawer lateral files with the 4-drawer model. The 5-drawer type is unrealistically WAY too tall.
d) Consider removing one of the three desks.
e) To further assist with the entity count issue, reconsider removing two of the bookcases.
Shadow from this bookcase looks odd. https://i.imgur.com/ljfKSfK.jpg. Consider removing this shelf unit, as it’s completely empty and this alcove is populated with too many objects already.
Slide this railing sufficiently to the right to halve the gap distance. https://i.imgur.com/L9YmsZb.jpg. It will cause a gap at the other end of this railing, but it won’t be as big of a gap. Do this to the railing on the other side as well.
Consider removing this desk. https://i.imgur.com/3KbPp5q.jpg. It seems completely out of place here. Relocate the double-high blue crates in the diagonally opposite corner, here instead.
Suggest moving these three metal frames higher to act as supports for the large green pipe above. https://i.imgur.com/c8TeKVk.jpg
HECU bodies clipping issues. https://i.imgur.com/ZRzsWwL.jpg. The legs of the left HECU clip into the ground and the legs of the right HECU clip through the rail.
Can fan sounds be attached to some more of the wall vents throughout the levels?
In Locker Rooms A & B, the same-type mini lockers have different coloring. https://i.imgur.com/eSa352U.jpg. Note that these are situated at both ends of the locker rooms.
I neglected to take screenshots of a few additional problems, so I’ll report back with those later.
So here we are again, it’s always such a pleasure…
Actually, that kinda don’t make sense; I’m still new round these parts.
Anyways, I went through both of the maps and I wrote down some of the things I experienced. I also took a lot of photographs so that I could further evidence my thoughts. I’ll put it on the table that I had fun with these maps, and playing them was what I hoped it to be. I loved seeing these areas and I loved fighting the enemies.
But of course, I would be cheating if I didn’t follow the purpose of the alpha. So I’m going to point out some things I noticed.
First I’m going to talk about A1 and some things that I took note of there.
I actually would have probably missed this tunnel… if I hadn’t known to fall through the tracks while watching the video. It’s a very nice area too, and I like that you tucked a tram down there too. It just really feels like there’s not enough indication that this area is down here, that’s all.
Now for me it was kinda odd seeing this structure here, the reason being is that usually these are surrounded by surfaces. The left side of this is standalone here. I just found this jarring, that’s all.
I was really unsure when I saw this door already open, if only because it leads right to the puzzle solution. In my opinion I would have made sure the player at least made it to the main room first before they could come this way.
I later found a similar model in the B map, and they all have the same insignificant issue. The top prongs lead into nowhere. Since this is electrical stuff I’m sure it can’t do that. I know you’re not a modeler though and can hardly be blamed for this. Actually, I find it interesting that the prongs line up exactly with the wall texture there.
Here I am just after the wooden bridge. The textures are slightly misaligned coming into the turn. I’m not really sure which one of these is correct though…
It might interest you to know that the Vortigaunts were shooting at me all the way from over there. Undoubtedly the two smartest Vorts of them all, ladies and gentlemen.
And weirdly enough, I was able to get the 50 cal to move when I took the helm, so apparently I am not having the same problem that everyone else has been having.
For the elevator/ambush area at the beginning, there were two items that really caught me.
I can kind of understand that there has to be a small separation here. This is being extremely nitpicky here, but I have to wonder why the rail on the right is so far out? It almost looks like it would scrape the wall if it moved down.
And then I also find that the elevator itself is pretty flush with the wall. Again this is a very little detail, but it is still one that has been caught.
This room was the room I was most looking forward to seeing. Although I could gripe that I liked the old design better, the new design is better. It makes much more sense and it definitely fits the feel of the office complex around it.
I imagine this redesign might have been influenced by the entity deletions. Either way, cutting it in half and making the path a 45-degree made the floorplan both more interesting to look at and easier to cross. Besides, the cafeteria in WGH was also pretty small, so this now resembles it.
This is an interesting ambush with an interesting problem; you can approach it from two opposing directions. Me, I went into the cafeteria section from the office complex section. I went through and killed the bullsquid there. And then I started heading towards the stairs…
And I got ambushed from behind. Except when you are coming from the stairs you are getting ambushed from the front. I ended up deviating from the projected path and got a sort-of nasty result (attacks from behind tend to be that way). Needless to say, this did a number on me.
While I am at gate dos, this also happened to me. After coming down from security, this gate was in the ground. Seems it went in the wrong direction, eh?
This is actually a bit embarrassing. I managed to get stuck in this locker on the third floor by walking inside than pressing ‘use’ on the door. I had to noclip my way out just to continue with my game.
People before me have also had some issues with some of the lights. While some things were lit funny…
This picture in particular I feel is of special importance because this is a battle heavy sector in the map. I had some slight difficulties seeing the Vorts charge into the office when I entered the complex.
It is entirely possible though that I had expected to see a light there, due to having watched the scene in the video. It’s one of those situations where the player would need to quickly get their flashlight. Considering it’s a choreographed scene though, I think it’s especially important to see our actors at the beginning. If after that point we should be exposed to the darkness, then I’m for it.
Speaking of darkness…
Well, I had a picture of a bullsquid, but it was all black because it was in a completely unlit area. Completely black, but it was still spitting at me. Actually, it was a terrible picture that didn’t really illustrate the issue…
But yes, enemies can see completely fine in the dark, being that they don’t use light to see (being AI and all). I kinda didn’t doubt this, so it might be something to think about.
I am really glad this door is here. I know this might have been there back when the video came out, but of course you were not able to show us everything in the video. This really solves having to travel back to the tram after lowering the gates.
I am also happy to see that you went and removed the barnacles from the electrified rails, because they made the whole thing into a sort of kaizo trap for unsuspecting players. Since the tram does run away from us, getting snagged means falling on the rail. And we still lose the tram. So thank you.
As for the battle outcomes… normally I would comment on those, but I edited my config so that aliens deal more damage… so that kind of skews the results I get. After playing through this level though, I might have to tone that back down.
Anyways, all of the errors aside, these are very very good maps. Again, I had a lot of fun playing both of them. I can’t wait to see how much you will improve with the beta!
Just played it. Don’t have much to say that these wonderful people have provided. So just 2 quick things.
In one of the fights (I know that’s really unspecific, but I can’t really remember/explain where it was), there was just an overwhelming number of vorts left for me to fight. I mean I eventually killed them all (just keep ducking behind walls), but I think there were like 10 coming after me at one point. I know the aliens are winning in OaR but that really really was a surprise. If it’s intentional I’ll get over it.
Not sure if it’s been mentioned so forgive me if it has. When you hit the “raise gate” button or whatever it is (ladies and gentlemen, my memory after playing the game not even 10 minutes ago…), it will signal the HECU speech line “go go go” even after the first.
For example, you press it and they say 'gogogo" and rush in the room. But if you just keep hitting the button every 5 seconds or so, he’ll say “gogogo” each time, but obviously no HECU turn up. Minor issue I’m sure you can fix.
Apart from that, I really love what you did. It’s a big expansive area for exploration(I got lost twice LOL), but still linear enough to avoid rage. I didn’t mind getting lost, because I had fun finding things and seeing new details.
I also liked the area with the 2 security zombies and the headcrab. I was like “where does this go”, and the next second I’m in this somewhat peaceful place, bar the aliens who want to eat me.
Oh and seeing what you said about fights. I think my skill.cfg MIGHT be affecting them a bit. I increased the mp5 from 6 to 8 damage (well mine, so that increases theirs too if I remember). There was stuff to do with HECU that affects how quickly they react and what not also. It’s only a minor delay, so not sure it’d sway any fight that much.
Great Job. Most of the problems have been said already. Maybe you could change some medkits to classic skin? Also, I thought that the guard in the silo would say goodbye?
Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.
