Jesus Christ, I just cannot present my arguments any clearer. I guess I should do some other, more productive things than participate in this pointless discussion, carry on…
Before we invented religion we were atheists to begin with.
As far as societal atheism, the Samkhya were one of many.
How about you stop spouting off your own ideas as fact before you do the research and actually learn something about the world you live in? There is a reason “god” keeps showing up, and it’s not because he exists. It’s because the human mind evolved in such a way to allow for the idea of a disembodied mind, to control others, and to explain that which couldn’t be explained.
If you think of religion as a reflection of the culture of the time in which it was made, religion makes a lot more sense. The only good things about religion are supposedly their morals, which are derived from our own ideas of morality and projected onto something that isn’t there.
You’ve successfully pointed to a philosophy not a society. Try again. Not to mention it has about the same basis as religion.
Now, lets look at reality. European society of the post Christ era is based around Christianity, and, as a result, our world is a product of religion. You need to come to terms with that, regardless of whether or not God exists.
WTH is an “atheistic society”?
Saying that we don’t know if religion has had a bad influence on history is either willfully ignorant or the result of extreme misinformation.
And justifying the existence of God because it crops up over and over is like justifying aliens because pyramids appear over and over. Or justifying dragons because images of them appear over and over in isolated societies.
A society in which the vast majority of people are atheists and societal values are based around atheistic values (which don’t exist, so this is kind of pointless). I should note that I’m not arguing about the modern world, in which such a society would be possible, but in the past.
You admit that there’s no such thing as “atheistic values” then question why there was no society based on “atheistic values”?
When I linked to that, it was one of many atheist philosophies in india. There was much more than just one, and there were whole parts of india that followed them.
With the other link which you so kindly ignored, I just proved in the past we were atheists before anything. Religion had to be invented by man, christianity being much more recent than even many other religions.
At least I back up my facts with evidence.
Look, as far as ‘atheistic societies’ go, look at Sweden, or Denmark. Not only are these people the happiest in the entire world, they’re educated and provide for their citizens as well. Meanwhile, the countries most bogged down by religion, including the United States, get unhappier and unhappier and less and less educated.
I daresay those countries, Wark, are “secular”, not “atheistic”. Just sayin’…
I do agree, but all I’m saying is, if he’s looking for an example, these come about as close as he can hope to find.
I believe he was talking history, not modern societies.
Why separate them?
We don’t really need to be talking about the bronze age to be talking about history. Even if you were to separate them you’d just be being picky. The change in these countries is one that’s been happening for ages.
I’m not going to argue his sake, I’m informing you of what he was saying so you wouldn’t get another of his posts telling people they can’t read.
It is my belief, and I think the evidence will back me up on this, that societies have been rising and falling without the aid of religion since the before the dawn of man. Religion is just riding on the coattails, as it were.
I’m just curious on your elaboration then danielsangeo… what about the Crusades? The Persians? The Incas?
Plenty of societies were leveled as a direct result of religious dispute. You think these would have happened eventually anyway for a different reason? Or you contend that religion did not have anything to do with it at all?
I’m sure you can come up with specific examples where religion directly affected the rise and fall of societies, but, let me make a counter-example of the “Holy Roman Empire” which fell not due to religion but due to corruption and imperialism (among other things).
It is my contention that, perhaps the societies you mentioned would have eventually fallen, but for different reasons. Nothing is forever. The United States, too, will eventually crumble (not in my or anyone living today’s lifetimes, AFAIC) and perhaps be replaced by a world government, which, too, will eventually crumble and be replaced by, perhaps, an interstellar government (a la “The United Federation of Planets” or something). Then, eventually, humans will speciate and they, too, will govern in some currently unknown fashion. It’s just the way of the things.
I doubt that, even in the examples you mentioned, that religion was the only reason for the disputes.
It may not have been the reason but religion was the tool which helped eliminate their political undesirables.
True, but in societies that were anti-religion, such as under the Mao or Pol Pot regimes, political undesirables were done away with for purely “secular” reasons, too.
It’ll happen whether religion is involved or not.