[COLOR=‘Green’]This discussion is veering slowly towards personal attacks, keep it civil guys. Iron Woodside, you’re being offered constructive criticism, either take it or don’t, don’t have a go at someone for doing what you’ve asked. Also, your constant passive aggressive gripes against the developers isn’t going unnoticed. We get that you’re unhappy with the speed of progress, give it a rest.
Everyone else, if you don’t like the way Iron Woodside operates, just leave the thread alone, don’t keep poking it.
You’re basically saying the Hazard dev team are a bunch of lazy-asses, well, I strongly recommend you to do a comparison between the original game, and the current mod. They’re not just copy-pasting the original, they’re bringing it more life, detail and all of that goodness.
I recommend you to start doing the same with your maps.
Like some people have said before, yours look very bland, the lighting is boring, and some are almost an exact copy of the original BM. :fffuuu:
I don’t think that’s really what he’s saying. All he said was that it was taking them a while, probably implying that he has a lot more free time and can work on maps longer.
I see no reason to think he’s just copying the maps. They do look like they somewhat belong in BMS, although they are incomplete.
If the maps are similar to the single-player BMS maps, you must take into account that many original Deathmatch maps were similar to Half-Life’s single player mode maps. The lighting doesn’t seem complete, but I wouldn’t describe the maps as “bland.”
On a more relevant note, I think we need to step back and look at ourselves. We’ve taken a little thread on some guy’s mapping work and turned it into a vicious string of personal attacks. Can we just stop yelling at this guy for not being as careful with wording as he could have been and criticize the maps as we are meant to?
Look at this:
https://goo.gl/vCV53Q
Which is clearly mimiced from this: https://wiki.blackmesasource.com/images//a/ad/17_rapidcore_001.jpg
Also, the maps are really empty and large, and it looks, indeed, bland. I’m just giving out my opinion.
And he’s talking like he’s indirectly insulting people.
Perhaps so. The problem is, while he’s indirectly insulting people, everyone else is less indirectly insulting him and his work. He might be working off early BMS images, and I don’t see much of a problem with that. Only if he doesn’t give credit to the people who engineered the original image does it become a problem. And didn’t he say he was taking some inspiration from the concepts? (If I’m wrong, I apologize.)
Also, it may just be a coincidence.
First off, It’s that he’s not just working off early concepts. Sans Gasworks, every map he’s showed is based almost brush-for-brush on Black Mesa maps. I could go take comparison screenshots, it’s so close I can barely tell a difference. It’s no coincidence either unless he somehow managed to coincidentally match the exact props and placement as well. Simply put, his copied work should put him on people’s bad side and the fact that he tries to criticize various dev teams’ speed while copying and putting out work of a far lower quality is downright insulting and arrogant. Direct or indirect, insults are insults and there was absolutely no reason to say what he did.
Secondly, no one’s insulting his work. It’s been valid criticism, and he’s been telling us it’s all painfully blatant that his 100%, maybe 99.99% complete maps need work in obvious areas that he didn’t feel the need to mention, and that he wants to see some screenshots to define what a good map looks like. Oh, also that it’s an MP map so he can skimp out on details. Oh, and also in his case all these walls can remain blank. Basically people think his maps are bland and boring but none of that applies to him for some reason unless they can show screenshots of better maps.
I’ll say again that the gasworks map needs serious improvement. Way more than the maybe .01% you say.
Why do you assume it’s specific spots in the map when you’re told that pretty much all of them in general lack both? Okay, I get as designer you might think it’s infallible and therefore might not be able to see overall issues, but when everyone’s telling you it’s the maps in general, maybe it’s the maps general. The only ones I find passable are Office and Lambda Bunker as those maps are more or less straight from BM, so it’s pretty much done for you.
Again, assuming it’s very specific when it really is in general. It’s not a specific texture that’s throwing it off, it’s how they’re used. They’re mix & matched in a way that just looks off, I don’t find it pretty.
Let’s talk about image #1.
Okay, it’s industrial. What does that have to do with the bad texture usage or lack of detail? Here:
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This entire buildings seems to be made of the same grimey silo texture. Looks really basic, plain and noobish.
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Why is this door not in the wall?
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These textures don’t flow into each other at all, there’s no trim.
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These texture don’t flow into each other at all.
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1 clearly repeaty texture with no variation across a large object. Once again looks noobish and gross. There are no supports on this object. The texture doesn’t seem to fit the brushwork.
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This entire roof bit. There’s no decoration and the texture doesn’t fit the brushwork. Also this entire building as a whole looks bland.
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No trim in this window.
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No doorframe.
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Textures are clearly not aligned, also once again do not flow into each other.
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Plain and boring building is plain and boring.
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Why are these large pipes made of exactly the same material as the building in #1? It also doesn’t match the area. I get that the old wiki image also had a bad texture choice but you could have attempted to pick one that fit.
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No model rails, no trim on the catwalk, no supports on the catwalk.
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This building as a whole isn’t so hot, esp. the texture combination, but this specific area could use some breaking up.
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Repeating textures are repeating. I’m pretty sure this is something most level designers are taught very early to avoid. I see this is a couple other areas as well.
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Why don’t these lines extend across the ground? Why do they just end in the center? Also, this door looks odd and the corner guards aren’t consistent with the rest of Black Mesa.
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Another building made out of one metal texture, very plain. Also no trim on the manhole.
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How is this tiny little catwalk still standing?
BONUS: This is an industrial area. Why are there no bollards, or traffic cones, corner protectors, streetlights or guide lines of any sort? It seems there was only some focus on the direct playable areas and only to a basic extent. There’s also no 3D skybox, and the lighting is bland and consistent and dull throughout.
What you have in speed, you lack in visual appeal.
You seem to have “detail” confused with “props thrown in the player’s way.” No. Look at BMDM, like the newest Stalkyard image. Or Hell, even CS:GO surpasses your level of detail.
GG, sir.
You win. FATALITY.
Just wanted to drop in and say hi here.
You have some good ideas on how to expand on the design of the original maps. I saw proof of this back when you showed up your Crossfire map some time ago. That three level building on the surface, which was free-standing in the original map, is especially worthy on how you’ve expanded it. I like what I see.
I do have to agree that the visuals could use some touching up though. A good variety of textures goes a long way in making your geometry really stand out, and it also helps it look more realistic, something Black Mesa definitely aimed for. Since you’re making areas that Black Mesa hasn’t really covered yet, you have a bit of freedom here. Go wild!
Take it from me, when I was working on Loop Mod and Vent Mod, I got the bulk of the work done pretty quickly. But after that I started squandering over the little details, making sure everything looked, felt, and worked exactly how I wanted it to (within the best of my ability obviously). Between the two mods I spent six months on-and-off working to perfect them, and they were only expansions on existing levels, and that was partly because I’m a noob.
Keep it up!
Thank you. Why didn’t you say this earlier. I’m not even joking, why didn’t you say this earlier?. Thanks for your expertise. This was extremely helpful of you showing me these issues. I apologize for pushing the wrong button on your system…
Apparently, you are a fighter; that shows for sure. I’d still like to ask: what work have you done that’s so significantly better?
It has seemed that an impression has been made of off false information.
I was questioning why it took so long to create maps/mods. I never once insulted anyone. I was complaining on how long it was taking for Hazard Course because it’s embarrassing how long it takes to recreate seven maps that are relativity short. I didn’t want to start a fight because we are both wrong entirely.
I’m just defending my stature because I feel that this “…FATALITY…” is completely ridiculous.
Crypt, like I said I completely agree with you. I revised certain areas of gasworks before even seeing your comment. The buildings are completely bland. Hear me out though, go open Half-Life(GoldSrc) DM and look at the map. I was only recreating the Half-Life 1 version (by texture similarity), I realized that I was mistaken by defending my own false words. Gasworks isn’t complete and not even close to it. Make sure to watch the video on the map to get the whole thing of it, that’s what seems where your info went wrong.
As another serious question: How exactly is every single map lacking of detail, full of dull lighting, and bland? Except the ones I copied from and have complete 100% access to using the maps assets such as: reusing the lighting entities.
The only reason why I questioned the specifics of your CC’s was because they honestly could have been anywhere on any map. Assuming you didn’t watch the videos, it could probably clear somethings up. Such as: there actually is a 3D skybox in gasworks.
On the unrelated note: why does every map have to look visually appealing? some places in real life look ugly from Crypt’s point of view that is. That’s one thing I don’t understand from certain suggestions on this thread, rooms don’t necessarily have pipe systems coming out of the wall, some rooms don’t have cracks on the wall or in the floor. I can keep going.
I appreciate the continuous support and guidance. I’ll make sure to train up in the field of mapping and throw out the nooby concepts/ideas/texturing/model placement. How 'bout maps in general.
Yeah, I’m apparently more noobish then I first realized. I’m a complete and utter failure when it comes to mapping. I should probably pickup a new hobby.
Thanks for your support and I’ll make sure to keep working at it until every corridor has a huge crack on each wall and such with air ducts and pipe systems and some ghetto ass graffiti.
Besides that If anyone got offended by misreading/misunderstanding what I commented, I’m extremely apologetic.
You’re right, sorry about that. I sorta engaged in argument even though I said I would hold myself. I’m just disappointed in how the criticism isn’t very constructive.
I did ask for [COLOR=‘Red’]constructive criticism[/SIZE] not this garbage. I’m pretty sure there is a difference between insulting the work of others, such as I did, and being friendly and suggesting a certain change in the work.
example: Nice work Iron Wooside, I do have a suggestion though. Gasworks has some bland lighting outside near the main building (the one with the RPG in it).
If you are wondering why I copy the maps from in-game footage, I do that to emulate the real maps. Have you seen dm_office It use the same level (modified textures/rooms) as the map c1a2a. I wanted to emulate the same thing, without changing the level’s textures, actually make the level make sense. Same thing goes for lambda_bunker. The map is made from the same level, even the same structure for all the rooms. What makes it bad for me to actually recreate the level with the new connecting sewer? I don’t see this issue. You can’t really recreate the hazard course from images/ ingame footage, because THERE IS NONE. I would so gladly recreate it for my own purposes.
Thanks, & have fun!
I figured after multiple user comments you might assess and notice most of it (which you claim to have done anyway). You seemed so absolutely sure of your abilities, so much of it seemed too obvious to point out, but here we are.
I don’t believe I’ve claimed to have done better work, nor do I see the relevance.
While I can understand how it can seem pathetic (as does the rest of the team (I’ve on more than one occasion publicly acknowledged that it’s terrible)), we do have our reasons, some of which were explained to you. An entire paragraph here is at the very least an indirect insult to two teams whose situations you’re unaware of. I was speaking to another Tripmine level designer some months back, and if I remember correctly, he said that he’s barely got a couple hours of free time a day if he chooses to have less than enough sleep for work.
I apologize for coming off so harsh, but questioning these teams then acting so superior for absolutely no reason at all, and then presenting work that is seemingly 90% copied really kicked me. And after your previous comment on the HC page (criticizing the HC and BM teams), you weren’t exactly on my good side.
I’m not sure if you can tell, but the lighting is mostly a pale yellow with very “flat” brightness. Gasworks doesn’t have it as bad as Rapidcore, but it’s still not very interesting. In Gasworks’ case, I already suggested taking a look at OaR for lighting ideas.
That’s because I pretty much meant it everywhere on every map.
Black Mesa is a visually appealing game, and if map packs such as yours are trying to keep up with it, it makes sense that they’d also be visually appealing. Not to mention you asked for feedback, my (and others’) feedback is that it looked boring.
Yes, undoubtedly real life is bland in many areas. Plain cubic rooms are common, serving purely for function, not aesthetics. Empty grey hallways, flat and depressing lighting, it’s all totally common, more often than particularly interesting rooms, even. Though being a video game, I feel maps should generally be reasonably pretty, especially when they’re meant to go along with something like Black Mesa. The occasional dull room or hallway is okay, Black Mesa even had some of this. But in your case, I was going off screenshots of very important areas that have lots of room for improvement on the aesthetics. These areas are places the player is likely to spend lots of time, so they at least should be nice to look at in my opinion.
Now you’re just being unreasonable. 
It seems like I’m apparently coming off as arrogant, which I don’t intend to. I’ve tried to keep any idea of my skill, whether I feel I could do better or not, etc. out of it as it’s irrelevant to yours. Whether you’re talented at something or not, you can still spot good, bad, great or horrible work.
This is totally fine, however as stated before, most of your images shown are largely just Black Mesa maps or copied from BM, which isn’t particularly notable in my opinion. It doesn’t help that you go on to question dev’s speeds shortly after.
I don’t get what you’re saying here, but relevance is lost on me again, nonetheless.
-snip-
Some of Crypt’s work:
https://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/22/21589/hc_transition_rsc03.1.png
https://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/22/21589/hc_physroom_rsc02b.png
He is quite possibly the most valuable environment artist that we have on the Hazard Course development team. Although he may be harsh in his criticism, he definitely knows what he’s doing.
If it makes you feel better, I’ve written an essay on exactly why it has taken so long to make the Hazard Course. I’ll be releasing it to the public as a postmortem report after we finish development.
It’s not unrelated… this is a legitimate, good question. The answer is that, it’s not necessarily true that a room needs to look “visually appealing”. What Crypt and everyone else means to say is that a room should look “natural”, in that it doesn’t make our brains subconsciously think “this is an unnatural, unrealistic video game” immediately after looking at it. Small things like cracks in the walls, smudges, and general irregularities help fool our brains into more easily accepting the scene as “natural”, especially when we do so to cover up obvious regularities, like repeating/tiled textures.
Nothing in the real world is 100% regular, tiled, or repeating. There are always subtle variations. Our brains know this. That’s why a scene feels a bit “off” if you re-use the same texture that repeats itself along a large wall, without anything to break it up visually.
Also, nothing in the real world has 100% flat lighting. Subtle variations in light levels and shading go a long way to convincing our brains that an image feels “natural”.
It’s a general rule about virtual world aesthetics: It’s easier to make our brains think that something looks nice if it is irregular. The easiest way to make something irregular is to make it worn or dirty, or to break it up with (some) visual clutter.
No problem. We’re here to help. 
You realise how those two sentences sound together, right?
The mind boggles if you genuinely thought that’s what you were being told to do. Obviously everything in moderation. Your passive-aggressiveness is really wearing thin now.
You got constructive criticism, but because it didn’t say what you wanted to you took offence. Some of the people commenting are excellent mappers, you’d do well to listen to their advice.
You do realise that this should actually explain the time discrepancy between your copy and paste maps and the Hazard Course team’s designed entirely from scratch maps? Their job takes a lot, lot longer.
I just realized how pointless all of this truly is. The fact that I could be completely misunderstood was not approached in my thought processes previous of creating this. I’ll shall stop being a sarcastic twerp because it will not fix anything that’s already been done . I guess I have to start using winky faces or similies to emulate my true feelings.
I’m surprised that my background or reputation in mapping hasn’t been noticed at all, I’ve been mapping ever since Worldcraft was available. Probably due to me finally creating my account after 10 years of waiting and watching Black Mesa Source. Coincidence? The same way with my YouTube channel in 2010.
I’m so confused why I didn’t start this project earlier, like crossfire. I started that in 06 and is the longest standing map in the pack (now I can actually try to use the Surface Tension/FaF themes).
You pretty much want to bitchslap me after this. :’(
So, since when did designing a room (four walls plus a ceiling and floor) become so damn difficult. All you need to do is seek what is relevant to the level. :zip:
Well I’m gonna change the topic indefinitely just for this one post
Example A:[/SIZE]
Last time I checked. The Black Mesa Hazard Course is designed to train Black Mesa Personnel in the use of the Hazardous Environment Suit/Armor vest and helmet; even for fucking combat training. 
Why is there a warehouse/storage room on the training course? A forklift? Really? What purpose does the forklift have for the level? Why waste a forklift (= money, in a realistic setting) just to sit there. Even worse, why is there a specific road for the forklift? Are you afraid that the driver can’t tell where the other access door is? How does the user move boxes without scraping the vehicle on the curbs?
I’d suggest modifying the rooms floor structure, maybe instead of tile use a pavement/asphalt texture.
In case you haven’t noticed, the maintenance man mysteriously keeps forgetting to re-tile the floor after and unexplained… removal? :freeman:
Because loose pieces of paper on the floor isn’t enough, you need random cinder blocks too. Might as well use one of the traffic cones over there to put on top of the moved tile piece, you don’t want anyone to trip. Maybe instead of random cinder blocks, moar boxes because fuck logic.
Another question, why is there an industrial lamp to the right of the screen? Because the heavy duty ceiling lights aren’t enough? This ‘warehouse’ has become a storage closet in my offices workroom. self explanatory, more rational props.
What’s going with the textures next to the industrial lamp? it looks like they could us alignment.
The other walls in the room, the texture just doesn’t seem right for some odd reason. maybe it’s the headboard above them that give it a rough feeling.
The three stair steps look like they could use some refreshing.
It seems that some textures could use some work. Maybe some blending will help.
Your ceiling looks fantastic though. Looks like the inside of a real wearhouse, well if it were suppose to be, that is.
Example B:[/SIZE]
This one seems a tad bit better though. Some texures look out of proportion with the rest of the surroundings. The caution tape around the center piece labeled “1 B” for no reason. Yeah that one, the boarder looks stretched. :3
This room is very hard to understand because in the original Half-Life It seemed to be some kinda of multi-level room with a sewer pipe at the bottom level. Your depiction seems a little darker than the map should be and seems to be an actual sewer chamber; when it’s suppose to be a walkabout track.
Down to the sewer with this one.
You should probably add a new secondary walkway for ‘adventurers’. Maybe some kind of maintenance passage.
The hologram receptacle looks likes it’s being powered from nowhere. Just generating a full-body hologram with a tiny box, because that’s possible in 1998. Well I guess that’s a tad to irrational because you can always analyze a sample with a huge anti-mass spectrometer.
I just don’t see a need for a catwalk on the secondary level, They already got security cameras and a window.
Why does the observation room look as shitty as the sewer? You’d think it would match the others correct? :fffuuu:
Because all the rooms were built specifically for training. Not old rooms transformed into a training course. All of these rooms where themed a special way by the architects. They truly serve no purpose for actual sewage processing.
Good idea with the yellow pipe, really fits the theme you’ve created. Draws the attention downward the path.
These rooms aren’t really realistic (from a real world perspective) because why would Black Mesa create inoperable equipment for a training course?
They wouldn’t. It’s just the mappers depiction.
Example C:[/SIZE]
Not sure whose work this is…
It has come to my attention that this screenie comes with assets out of BMS. The stair case looks bland and could use a texture change for the front side.
The lighting (prop) next to the stair case looks way to clean next to everything else around it.
The lighting between the two sections (at the end of the hallway before the corner) looks way too dark. add some bright lights somewhere to fit the theme.
Swap out some of the hl2/source sdk base XX textures in plop in some BMS stuff.
The ceiling looks awkwardly bent inward toward the catwalk. Why couldn’t the designer of the catwalk just went with the standardized beams like all the other ones?
I’m very intrigued by the anomalously glowing red light, but I can’t really tell what’s going on back there.
Where is the light coming from off the screenie I’m interested as well!
As a side question: where does this take place exactly? Is it the steps coming down from the long jump training? or is it the replacement of the beautiful ladder testing initiative #2?
As a side note: Please, pretty please If you haven’t already, when you finish Black Mesa: Hazard Course, reorder the spinning bridge before the long jump testroom. Well I guess you could modify the room to a certain length so you can’t long jump across and skip the whole test. Anyway do whatever, that was pointless to say.
Because it doesn’t matter. You created this thread regarding your maps, and now it’s done turned into a pissing match. I would have hoped someone who’s been designing levels since the Worldcraft days would be more accepting of feedback. I’m gonna address your words here and probably be done with you. This thread’s about those maps your created. That’s why you created the darn thread.
I have found the source of your level design woes! This thinking right here. This is why you’re so much faster and it’s so much easier! No thought or effort put behind it, just making a room.
While I’ll take most of your suggestions into consideration (some are quite valid), this paragraph is something I want to address specifically: A large part of our design process has been explaining the course. We’ve even racked our brains trying to explain the combat training. After studying the original maps, what we’ve decided upon is that the Course is recycled from the old Sector A facilities. What this means is that the course is not simply designed for training, rather being reused by lesser-used or retired areas of the sector with modifications necessary to be a suitable training course. Very makeshift. Between the team, the community and our testers, this seem to be accepted as sensible. So no, I don’t find any of your complaints regarding “It’s just a training ground!” valid. Also yes, this first screenshot is a warehouse that you happen to pass through. Look at the original, it’s also very warehouse-like.
It is dark, but the room has since bee lightened. Here’s a slightly newer image.
Also, again, it was at one point part of a fully functional water treatment facility.
We haven’t fully decided on a power source type. Out of frame there are wires and power boxed, you may notice a large portion of the front is out of frame. Regardless, it’s still more sensible than the original, which had no emitter, even. Also, teleportation, I don’t think the hologram tech here is questionable, honestly.
As I already said, the room had a past life as part of a functioning facility. This room was port of a water treatement/filtration facility, a pretty common theme throughout the course. That catwalk actually goes somewhere (once again, out of frame).
“Shitty” how? Old and derelict? Might have something to do with the fact that it’s old and derelict.
Do I need to say it again, or do you get the idea?
Sigh.
Yes, a depiction with some thought about the areas in-universe use, and not simply a room with four walls.
The user who posted it. This area is actually quite new, so these bits of input are actually pretty valuable!
This is a pathway directly after the longjump training.
“So, since when did designing a room (four walls plus a ceiling and floor) become so damn difficult. All you need to do is seek what is relevant to the level. :zip:”
Oh dear god. Please, dude. I never facepalmed so hard in my life. Ohhh deaaar. :’(
Alright, I’ll take the bait, why the fuck not, eh’?
That’s like me saying “LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, I WORK FOR TRIPMINE STUDIOS AND HAVE MAPPED FOR A FEW BLOODY YEARS!”… Nobody really gives a toss mate.
I’m not that interested in the fact that you have prior experience in level design or not. I started when I was 16, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that I am now any better than when I originally started. Time =/= quality. You simply created this thread to get feedback on your work; you got feedback and reacted badly to it. Simple as that really.
You REALLY need to change your attitude towards other developers and the general public, as it is, still, quite frankly deplorable.
If this is the way in which you react to legitimate criticism, then you can say goodbye to anybody giving proper criticism and feedback due to the fear that you’ll just rip them to the ground. You’re acting about 8 years old…
Also, you complain about Black Mesa Source not following the standard Half-Lifey feel, yet you continue to copy and paste their content and maps DIRECTLY in to your work, why is that, exactly? Surely if you’d want to create your own invision of the original maps like you said, you’d follow your own style and layout and sod BMS’?
I was calm before reading your last couple of posts, but this HAS to stop! Your posts are full of logical fallacies!
3/10 made me reply.
They were not.
Except that’s exactly what they are.
It’s still after long-jump training. The room is restructured so that skipping the test doesn’t work the way it used to, but it’s still deliberately possible. We have lines in the script to make the scientist observers account for that.
[COLOR=‘Green’]I think it’s fair to say this thread isn’t going anywhere so I’m going to close it. Iron Woodside, it was clear this thread was created specifically to have a dig at the Hazard Course team and despite being given an opportunity to retract that you haven’t. You still have the original posts for each of your maps but I’ll be keeping an eye on all of them.