Ask A Democratic Socialist

#81

Something needed to be done to save our economic system, but Junior Bush’s strategy of simply handing out money to banks was NOT the right thing in my opinion. If we’d nationalized, broken up, and resold these fucked-over companies to the highest bidder, not only would it have cost less, but we also wouldn’t be having this bullshit conversation about how much money US taxpayers need to lose because banks fucked up. And we wouldn’t have to worry about being forced into another bailout if they fuck up again.

You think that the US taxpayer needs to take a loss because certain corporations fucked themselves and the global economy over? That’s where we disagree. I think the people that actually fucked up, the “financial services” industry, need to accept that they lost the money, WE saved their ass, and they need to pay US back in full for the amount it took to save their ass.

At last we agree on something! Most reasonable people would also agree that when we have so much capitalism it fucks over the global economy, we have too much capitalism and not enough socialism.

I’d like to see some citation for this made-up “fact.”

#82

You’re absolutely right. “Here, have billions. I don’t care what you do with it.” was a pisspoor strategy and prolonged the economic collapse. I’m not sure, once the collapse began to happen, that nationalizing, breaking up, and selling the pieces would’ve done any good, though.

They should have never been allowed to get to be “too big to fail” in the first place. I thought we had laws against that sort of thing… :rolleyes:

#83

Look up pork barrel spending.

#84

Like what, for instance?

#85

“pork-barrel spending” is a generic term for state-specific spending in bills passed by congress.

It would have done exactly the same thing that the bailout did, except that the taxpayer would have recieved equity stakes in bailed-out companies instead of nothing.

#86

It has a negative connotation for a reason. It is placed inside bills that cover other, more national things so senators or congressmen can say that they are doing things for their constituents. As such, they are used to get senators or congressmen to vote for a bill.

EDIT: Some examples.

#87

As I suspected, you’re confusing the financial services bailout with the economic stimulus bill. But this whole discussion is very tangential, I agree with you that the bailout didn’t have to be as expensive as it was - it would have been far cheaper to nationalize rather than hand out free cash. But any way you slice it, financial services corporations caused this to be necessary, and any money spent saving their asses, regardless of whether it went directly to them or otherwise, should rightfully be paid back.

#88

Ah. Just as I suspected.

Pork (pork) n. anything I disagree with.

Look, this was an economic stimulus bill. The items listed will bring in jobs and other businesses, stimulating the economy. You call it pork? I call it a jobs package.

But, back to the bailout. I neither agree nor disagree with mattemuse’s assertion about nationalizing or breaking up the big corporations, but I do know that something should have been done (something that would have been labeled as “SOCIALIST!” by those that don’t know what they’re talking about) a long time ago.

The assault on anything left wing has pushed the United States so far to the right that Barack Obama looks “left wing” for Christ’s sake.

#89

It was an example, not the actual thing. A place holder for something more relevant. I believe this is more relevant, but I tend to get the stimulus package and bailout confused. Somehow.

#90

So, I decided to do some research and these “pork” projects that you’ve mentioned in the bank bailout? They aren’t “pork” at all but merely some refinement of the tax code. The thing that jumped out as ‘startling’ to me? That thing about wooden arrows for children? Yeah, that may have seemed to appear out of the blue, but it was simply amending an ALREADY EXISTING LAW on the books. It amends part of the tax code already devoted to taxation of recreational equipment and specifically EXEMPTS the tax on archery arrows made for children.

Seriously? This is what you call “pork”? And here I thought they were “tax cuts”.

I could go into the others, but I have a feeling those are the same.

EDIT: Just quickly looked at the Exxon Valdez complaint (it’s six pages!). Yeah. Um. I don’t see any pork there either. And the complaint about the length? Firstly, the text is fairly large and only a small amount of characters are on each line that is fairly widely spaced. Secondly, the length is due to the fact that only specific people are affected by this “tax cut” (err, I mean “pork barrel spending”) and they had to lay out just who they were.

#91

A tax cut is essentially spending. The government loses money they would be making anyway, making the bailout cost more and be harder to payback.

#92

:what:

#93

It’s true, actually. Cutting taxes on businesses makes sense if you’re trying to fix the economy, but it does make the bailout more expensive. But that’s the whole premise of this exercise - give businesses a break at the expense of the taxpayer, in order to prevent them from going bankrupt and dragging the economy down with them. Like I keep saying, the taxpayer should at minimum break even on that deal, but it isn’t going to happen because capitalists control our political system.

#94

Okay, I’ll keep that in mind.

Tax cuts = Pork Barrel Spending

#95

in case you haven’t figured it out yet, “pork barrel spending” is just a generic catchphrase for any government spending that the person using the phrase doesn’t like. Wait, you already figured that out several posts ago. So what are you complaining about?

Fixed :smiley:

A plus side of all this hyperbole about how health care & taxing corporate america = a terrifying socialist takeover, is it tends to highlight how reasonable socialist policies actually are compared to the alternative. I certainly never would have described myself as a socialist before the bank bailouts.

#96

I’m not complaining at all. I just found it interesting that the right wing is calling tax cuts “pork”.

I don’t personally ascribe to socialist principles myself; I call myself a “responsible capitalist”.

I think that, like a bartender, cutting off someone so inebriated and calling them a cab so they don’t drive is the responsible thing to do. It doesn’t mean that I advocate full-on Prohibition! But that’s what these kinds of discussions devolve into; cutting off=Prohibition – regulated capitalism = socialism. And I’m forced to facepalm whenever that happens…

#97

Cool story bro - Albert Einstein was a Socialist. Just found that out, it made my day.

#98

#99

I’ve seen holier.

#100

I think it’s impossible to necro-post one’s own thread.

And yes, you’ll love discovering the theories and views of all the greats. It tends that the finer examples of humanity are also more leftist.

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