Basicaly if god exists he can’t do everything, because there are so many logical reasons not to have something happen but he still lets it happen or he can’t control it, there was no reason to creat man in the first place and yet he did, there was no reason to kill the dinosaurs/neanderthals but that happened, the halocaust, death
as well as good. also if there wasn’t evil we couldn’t compare good to anything so there would have been no good no evil. and so on and so on. I think the way world is going today is best becouse untill human doesn’t see this thick shell of shit around the earth he wont understand how better is doing good.(or something like that)
he can do everything possible but I dout the limits of possibility even of human.
I bet you don’t see the blatant contradiction in those statements.
You keep thinking “A universe can only exist with good and evil” because that is the only one you have experienced. Obviously god has the power to create a universe with only good in it. Unless of course you doubt god’s power.
yes there is possibility of only one side but inhabitants of that universe must have experianced another before.
ok. lets say god creaded universe where is only good. I live on some planed and I am happy I know everything I have everything and so on. one day a question appears so if here everything is good whatever I do is good? than if i take this child and bite of his ear it will be good as well. you see? you must know evil to understand good.
Oh god cannot do everything, he can’t kill himself or control people, he can’t change what people think, all he knows is what they will think, all he knows is what they will do. If he started the human race, it pretty much has done nothing for him. What if somebody is evil and kills many people, he should go to hell but what if he doesn’t die? he could not be punished and in that sense god can’t do anything to him
he can. well even humans can do that sometimes 
If you read my original post, you’ll see why I, as well as most Christians, think it’s folly for us to try and figure out why God does things, the reason for this being that we are unable to understand His perfection.
Your last sentence makes no sense, by the way. You say that He’s mad because the intelligent know that He doesn’t exist, yet if He doesn’t exist, then there is nothing which can be mad about that.
You missed the Eastern Orthodox Church, which has existed for the entirety of Christianity was part of the same Church as the Catholics until 1054, has always taught that we have free will. It has not canonized Augustine, Aquinas or Luther and disagrees with all of them. Augustine was canonized by the Catholics in the 14th century, long after the Great Schism between the Churches.
First off, God is beyond our conception of logic. As such, applying our logic to His decisions and actions is effectively useless. Furthermore, God CAN do anything and everything, including limiting Himself. Also, I’m not sure what you’re talking about in the end there, but God can intercede, he just can’t make you choose to do things (as He has limited Himself from doing that due to His gifting us with free will).
Excuse me, but if you bite a child’s ear off, you’re not good. In a universe where there no bad, you would not exist. Or you would never even dream of biting off a child’s ear. It just would not be possible to do bad.
Which an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good deity could do…but for some reason doesn’t.
Have you ever thought about the possibility that perhaps you’re wrong and God does not exist?
If I may say this without being rude, this sentence simply sounds like intellectual laziness to me. It’s always easier to just shrug and say that this or that happened because God said so, instead of trying to delve deeper into things and understand our reality better…
That’s a valid point, Jokerine; and indeed it does match the contour of intellectual laziness. However, it’s mostly not due to laziness but rather because we cannot and are not supposed to understand. So even if someone were to spend their entire lives trying to understand the workings of God, his progress would end up being futile as he would reach the same answers as the lazy man and achieve less in terms of servitude.
If you read my reply you would know that I read your original post, and pointed out the folly in a god outside of logic, with a video explaining all the fallacies with that argument.
That’s the joke.
What is interesting about this answer is the fact that you didn’t even address the point that he was backing up with that evidence, and just pointed out a small flaw in part of the evidence. This is pretty similar to most christians way of tackling evolution, not by providing evidence, or even addressing the point itself, but just trying to find small gaps of knowledge and declare victory.
With your extensive knowledge of christianity, you must also know of pre-pauline christianity and how it vastly differs from what christians believe today. To go even further back, you must also know that yahweh was originally one of many gods that the polytheistic canaanites (pre-christians) believed in. Specifically the war god. You can actually find the names of the other gods and references to them in the bible and torah. (el elyon, elohim, etc)
That’s why it’s much more important to invest in reality and trying to understand the universe that we live in. Not to mention you’d have to choose which god to study out of the millions of gods out there. That’s also assuming that there is a god. If there wasn’t one it would just make any study of god in that way pointless.
so basically since no one can understand what god is or wants theres no point in trying to do what god wants or be what god wants you to be, so he might as well not exist as far as any of us are concerned
You just said we can’t apply our logic to his decisions and right after that you used logic to explain why God cannot make us choose to do things.
You didn’t answer my last post, I had talked about this issue there.
I admit that it could be logically impossible to create a universe with free will and no evil at the same time.
However, what about hell? It makes no sense at all.
Says who?
Seriously, suppose I told you that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva created the universe. Then I begin to tell you a ridiculous story that makes no sense and then I tell you that “if this does not make sense is because one can’t use logic to understand them”.
This is obviously bullshit. Telling that “you are not supposed to understand” is clearly just something you say so that no one can point you the obvious absurds of what you are saying. It’s a trap, a ridiculous trap, the same kind of trap that dictators use to justify themselves: “I know you don’t understand, but this is for the country’s own good.”
You can say that we cannot understand some things, but Christianity is simply too absurd, and, by the way, the most absurd and contradictory religion that I know of, apart from Islam. I’m sorry for the honesty, but it is true.
No, they weren’t. Small-L libertine would describe their behavior, and Large-L Libertines were a name given to opponents of the original Calvinists, but I was referring to a specific group of New World Puritans who adopted the doctrine I described.
Scripture is clear about God’s predetermination.
This makes no sense even on it’s face.
It is? It’s THE most basic theological question. Outside of theology, questions regarding the meaning of existence are ubiquitous.
The definition and meaning of ‘perfect’ is completely arbitrary - someone pulled it out of their ass a long time ago.
No, it doesn’t
You’ve been doing exactly this ad infinitum in your comments. What you mean to say is that WE can’t reason about God, but you can.
How would YOU know?
Yes, it does.
I’d like to see YOU do that.
Logic isn’t a ‘Faith-Based’ system, it’s not a belief system It’s accuracy has been demonstrated. With the one exception of Godel which is very specific, there are only 3 groups of people that ever take this seriously - Extreme Skepticism, which is ridiculous and eats itself, Christians who seek to discredit logic as being false, and half-bright dilettantes who attempt to employ The Epistemology Gambit when they get their asses handed to them by someone who actually knows what they’re talking about - usually the same half-brights that self-describe as Libertarian or Objectivist - in the form of “Well, what do we really KNOW anyway?”.
ahahahahaah NO WAY !!! Too funny - this is The Epistemology Gambit !
We can be certain of many things. We can observe, describe, predict, and manipulate a great number of things with certainty.
I still have no idea what you mean by ‘perfection’. Infinity is a human concept, we defined it. There are many infinite sets. They have all been proven - they are what we say they are.
Physics isn’t like Religion at all - not at all. There’s no Faith involved whatsoever. We can directly observe a few nanosecs after the ‘Big Bang’. There are certainly many questions to be answered, but the fact that these have not yet been answered does not nullify what questions we HAVE answered so far.
Yes, you ABSOLUTELY can.
Faith means that you hold a belief that isn’t or can’t be proven, NOT that you hold a belief that has been disproved. That’s not Faith, that’s delusion.
whoi knows what that means - perfect and imperfect and the relationship between the two. Any description, rules, or definition is just something that someone pulled out of their ass - they’re two meaningless terms.
In scripture, perfect was intended to mean ‘without sin’ and imperfect meant ‘with sin’. The use of these terms is just some rhetorical bullshit out of someone’s ass - not that anyone actually defined them anyway, people in this discussion just kinda assumed meanings, definitions and rules for them.
This aspect of the discussion reminds me of kids playing:
“Pew Pew. Hey, you’re dead, Cartman.”
“No, I’m not I’m wearing invisible hyperionic Pew Pew protection. Your pews bounced of me and hit you. YOU’RE dead.”
Originally, there were only 3 articles of Faith in Christianity:
That Jesus was born of a virgin, the Son of God.
That he died on the cross for our sins.
That on the 3rd day, he rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven.
They were articles of Faith because they went against reason - they’re unbelieveable - one must make a ‘leap of Faith’ over reason in order to believe.
But in the last 2000 years, theology has basically made EVERYTHING a matter of Faith. Theology is basically a bunch of bullshit pulled from the asses of theologians to explain away discrepancies, illogical, unreasonable texts or dogma derived from them. It’s all just a retarded fairy tale that each new generation adds to.
It’s a lot easier to argue when you can just make shit up at any point, or defend your position by saying stuff like, “Well, logic is the same fairy tale as Christianity” or “What do we really know anyway?”
cock is a good word. Speaking of cocks - you can suck mine.
what definitions? The ones you pulled out of your ass?
you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
We not only predict something from nothing, but we observe it EVERYDAY. It’s not beyond human recognition - it’s beyond YOUR recognition.
Again?
Yes, you can.
Faith means that you hold a belief that isn’t or can’t be proven, NOT that you hold a belief that has been disproved. That’s not Faith, that’s delusion.
He IS our conception. You conceive of God and YOU define him. You’ve done so repeatedly.
Translation: Since it’s POSSIBLE that logic may be incorrect in some extreme and unknown circumstance, then logic and all applications are invalid.
Fucking retarded.
The popular use of ‘Scientism’ is some bullshit used by American Christians to make Science seem like a belief system, an equivalent of religion - it’s not.
Yes, they are. You just don’t know what ‘Theory’ means. You’re applying a TV Detective show dialogue definition to the term theory.
The story of Satan leading a rebellion in Heaven and being expelled is not scriptural, it’s a poem by Milton, Paradise Lost. But the mythos has been adopted by American Christians and is used as a boogey man, something to fear, an enemy - and because it has been widely used and expanded in popular culture.
To Jews, Satan is still God’s favorite angel. He IS a deceiver. He tests people and tempts people. That’s his job. In Christianity, Satan, Lucifer, and The Beast are confused to be the same. Whether they are the same and the explanation of who they are and why they are depends on the church you attend.
God explicitgs states in scripture that HE is the cause of all evil - in fact someone posted some of those in a comment in this discussion.
Hawkeye,
I have a guy that I’d like your daughter to meet. I know you have high expectations for her happiness and I didn’t want you to think I was just trying to fix her up with just some big loser so, let me tell you a little bit about him.
He has a temper and has been known to throw fits of rage.
He is jealous.
He has slaughtered men women and children.
He has ordered his armies to rape and pillage.
He has a son that he killed
and he really likes the smell of burning flesh.
Isn’t he just the perfect kind of guy you would want your 16 year old daughter to meet? When should I have him drop by?
I really like that particular creation story BTW. “May I be many. May I be one.”
Oh god can’t do everything, can he go back in time?, could he change the coarse of history?, He already is incapable to change people’s minds but he does know what they will think. could god kill himself?, could he kill the devil?, could godcomprehend his own intellegence?, could god stop people from dying?, could he make someone die?, what if we acheive immortality? then god will be inable to make us die, we could not go to hell or heaven, does god infinate intelligence?, because that my friend is impossible, there is no such thing as infinate intelligence, because there will always be more, and more, and more. Is god really as powerfull as he says he is? because I doubt it.
I can’t keep both this and the debate in the abortion thread going, especially with around 10 different sizable replies to one of my posts. Plus, the semester is ending and I have plenty of shit that I still need to do.
However, I want to clear up one thing. There is nothing inconsistent about saying that we can’t accurately reason about God and then going on to reason about him. I never said we can’t try to reason about Him (albeit futilely). The human mind is inquisitive and I don’t thinking about these things is inherently bad. I just don’t think we can ever come to an accurate conclusion. We can reason about Him, we’ll just never know if we’re right.
Also, Zen, according to scripture, He is perfect whereas we are imperfect. How can imperfection understand perfection? Even if you think they’re imaginary words, we still have some apparent ability to talk about them and understand the difference. Oh, and when I said God is illogical, I meant the notion seems to be illogical, not that He necessarily acts illogically, though, He might. To me, He is beyond logic.
Also, the scripture does not clearly support predetermination.
Probably a better use of your time. Good Luck.
Again, I don’t even know what you mean by ‘perfect’ and ‘imperfect’. As I said before: my understanding of those terms from the New Testament was that Jesus was ‘perfect’ meaning he had no sin, and the rest of us are ‘imperfect’ because we are not without sin.
The use of these words as amorphous, undefined terms is just meaningless to me.
Even if I consider these terms as amorphous an undefined, rather than what I think they REALLY mean in the context of Christian text, I STILL don’t see how this is even a question.
Who says that the imperfect can’t understand the perfect? Why would one think that? This is just some imagined assumption of the relationship between two meaningless terms.
The negative circular relationship is a bit fucked up, too. The idea that the imperfect can’t understand the perfect is - you, an imperfect being, understanding a perfect being to define it’s essential quality in relation to an imperfect being.
So, I have no idea what you mean by perfect and imperfect, but the structure itself is…problematic.
I knew what you meant.
But this is an interesting idea. So, we have no evidence of God really, no proof - belief in god is a matter of Faith of course, and I think you agree. But you also think that God is beyond logic? That God can not be deduced?
Somebody posted a list of biblical quotations that quite clearly support exactly that. I’m much too lazy to dig through the comments in this moment, maybe later.
HawkeyE: You keep talking about God as if He actually exists. Do you have any evidence of this? The Bible? How is that evidence?