86% of Germans would vote for Obama, if they could

#61

I’m from Spain, so go figure. I live in a country in which Catholicism has had an enormous influence in the culture. And the Popular Party, the right-wing Christian Party, is on the government right now. It’s one of the most religious countries in Europe, behind extremists like Poland, Portugal, Greece, Turkey (not in the EU, but still Europe, more or less) and a few others.

Even then, we’ve got a 70% Catholic population and going down, with a growing 25% of non-believers and an even bigger population of those who support laïcité (secularism, the separation of church and state.) And you wouldn’t know it’s a majorly religious country; nobody goes to Church, except old people, children and Latin-American immigrants. Spain is no Norway, Sweden or Denmark on these matters, but even such a traditionally religious country is SO far from the frankly alarming notoriety of religion in the USA.

I mean… Americans, you’ve got “In God we Trust” printed in your money since the fifties, because of the Red Fear, and back then you also changed the wording of your pledge of allegiance to include God. Which is funny, because it substituted the sentence that established the very point of your country: now it’s “one nation under god” instead of “one nation indivisible.” I just can’t fathom how could you let such theocratic bullshit taint the country that once was the most secular of them all.

Rants aside, I understand why Germans, and Europeans in general, would vote for Obama. For our standards, he’s a centrist, even right-wing in economic matters, although on social issues he’s on par with European liberals (in aspirations at least). So he’s pretty much someone who could be voted by leftists and right-wingers too. Only a very small minority would vote for the current, Tea Party-led Republican Party -they are obsessed with reducing taxes for the richest (Trickle-down economics, what a joke), denying science (I mean, Creationism? Global warming? Come on, we’re not in the 19th Century/80’s respectively.) and denying rights (women’s rights, gay’s rights, immigrants, etc.)

Where did the Old Republican party go? Europeans WOULD have voted for that party. But it’s not the same party. Consider this: the Republicans would consider many of Reagan’s policies to be “SOCIALIST!”, a very bad word indeed, because apparently they still live in the 50’s and haven’t heard of the difference between dictatorial communism and social-democracy. And those who know the difference don’t care: “Yeah, if we allow universal healthcare and government regulating business, one thing leads to another and PUM, by next week we’re on Maoist China.” These ones haven’t heard of the “Slippery-Slope” logical fallacy, apparently.

And Libertarians… come on, they don’t even exist around here. And thank God for that. A few years with those anarco-capitalists and Europe would go to shit. Capitalism works, if it doesn’t go crazy. Anarchism (lack of governance) is the definition of craziness.

#62

There are fundamental differences between the two cultures and politics of those cultures that makes this comparison a bit of a misframing.

Firstly, it should be said that Obama is a practicing christian. Being religious and holding public office doesn’t make one a theocrat. Angela Merkel clearly isn’t a theocrat.

In the US, there is a significant element in the conservative coalition that seeks to control the government and implement law based on the Old Testament. Within the conservative movement, there is a common creed, “The United States is a Christian nation created by Christian men.”, which is derived from the basic tenet of American Neo-Naziism, “The United States is a White Christian nation created by White Christian men.” This isn’t surprising given that the Republican party has bent over backwards to organize the white racist vote in the South, which has been effective, as you can see from an electoral map.

Conservative positions on many issues are derived from the Old Testament or from American Fundamentalist Theology. And that includes economic issues.

We don’t have any real public debate, political discourse, or even communication, because the argumentation is often theological, with one side saying, “The Bible says this, end of story.” And seriously, that’s it. And because of the nature of American fundamentalist theology, that it’s essentially not a real theology, but rather just taking phrases out of context and stringing them together, there can’t really even be a debate from a theological frame. They’re authoritarians, they’re not serious about theology, it’s just used (abused) to derive authority and justification.

So, there’s no real comparison between Germany and the US in terms of the theocracy issue. One of the central political struggles in the US is for/against real, actual theocracy, which seeks to make all of law and society based on biblical law, as if we live in the bronze age.

Again, for those living outside the US, this may seem like an absurd exaggeration - it absolutely is not.

There are other differences between the two countries politically and culturally that makes comparison of the political systems a false equivalency, but it’s enough just to address the theocracy aspect. When people talk about theocracy in the US, they’re talking about real religious law, derived from a mythology that God has chosen the United States to be blessed with His grace, and that we must live by His word in law and society, like some Islamic states that impose Sharia.

#63

Related: https://www.pensitoreview.com/2012/09/01/leonard-nimoy-with-mitts-inspiring-struggle-to-succeed

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