1v1 crossfire comparasion (and feedback)

Hey.
Me and Alles_Ratten played 1v1 on crossfire. First we played it in BM :smiley: M (We played my crossfire remake “dm_pro_crossfire”. Will release this on the workshop soon)… Then after we played the same in HL1:AG.
The commentary is german. Here is the video:

https://www.twitch.tv/bo0giem4n/c/6841912

or on youtube:

youtube.com/watch?v=j_Mo7prGfSI

Feedback:
As you can see the current BM :smiley: M respawnsystem is very unbalanced for 1v1. first because you have huge spawn delay and after you died, your enemy will get a lot of time to stack up with items. second you can barely hear playerrespawns… third you never seem to respawn close to your enemy (when I positioned myself in the middle, my enemy always respawned in the buildings, never on the balconies or in the pit)… fourth you can’t take damage right after you spawned (spawnprotection)… fifth the pistol deals too much damage and the gauss needs to charge only a very short time to deal massive amounts of damage

Work on the sound (spotting)… Edit: I think it’s just the Source Engine… So some Sounds are really quiet and others are really loud. Some sounds drown others and I think that’s really bad. I prefer really clear, functional 3D sound spotting instead of super effect-stylah sound …

Gaussjumping is better than before, but it still can be tweaked a bit more.Maybe make the boost less dependent on your own vertical speed…Maybe it’s not super important.

The crossbow feels great - besides the tracer effect is still there… Please remove it… Also the hitreg with gauss and bow is spot on. Very nice.

You need to fix the falldamage, because if you jump out of the windows in crossfire you don’t receive falldamage.

Not sure if the walk key works now… But if not, fix it.

Add option to disable auto-weaponswitch.

Add key to drop weapon.

Add voting system.

Fix the movement (acceleration, speed, jumps, aircontrol, inertness etc. it simply needs a lot of fine-tuning… but yea… I think it’s on your list.)
Fine tweak Weaponbalance… But I know you’ll do that…

Thx for reading.

Drop weapon?

Only reason i see is if your teammate needs a gun quickly.
Unless you don’t use some weapons?

Voting system for what?
Next map?

If you play 1v1 on crossfire and you shot your RPG and it’s empty, you can drop it and pick up a new one so you don’t have to reload (but in black mesa it’s somehow bugged anyways… sometimes i shoot my RPG and change weapon quickly right after and when I switch back to my RPG it’s magicly reloaded somehow). Also works good with other weapons… If your weapon’s clip is empty, just drop it, pick up a new one and save the reload time…

voting system for changing map, changing gamemode, changing timelimit, start match, pause match, abort match, kick player, allow player to join a running match, move player to spectators, setting the next map, changing fraglimit, weapons stay, force respawn, deathcam on/off, bunnyhop on/off, weapon and item- respawn time (should be 20 and 30 seconds by default), BM/legacy playerrespawning, spawnprotection on/off, gravity, maxspeed for player movement (320 ups should be max… at least it is like that in HL) etc.

Great job on providing video feedback like this.
Tells so much more then words can do.
Although crossfire is my least favourite map It tickles me already to see this :slight_smile:

I do hope black mesa will find another balance.
For instance I’d agree with anything you’ve said on the spawn system.
However I like the spawn protection, it gives more fairness and a new dimension in map control.
When the player spawned he/she will at least have that mili second to adjust and orientate.
(think it wears off by either moving, picking up items or shooting, I am uncertain think it is shooting).
Quite challenging :slight_smile:
Spawn killing is somewhat possible but I consider this an improvement.

Think of it from the less experienced player perspective.
For many it is not fun to get spawn killed all the time so this is ideal.
It prevents spawn mining as well.
Consider it a blast from the past, that should stay there.

The sound aspect of spawning I am thorn on at the moment.
Theres reasons for and against it.

One thing that is a major issue is the delay before you can respawn.
The reason the top player can stay in control is also noticed by this in TDM, not just 1v1.
Quite unfair, although the deathcam and information could stay.
Perhaps make it just possible to skip that and respawn quicker for whoever likes.
I’ve noted some player mention after he got killed plenty of times by lisya inside the server that he spended more time in death then playing.
From different perspectives theres gameplay improvement reasons to be able to skip that and respawn quicker.
The trade off to spawn slower and get information like the health stats and anything from the death cam could be considered a great new tactical aspect.
Personally I would miss being able to guess my opponents health and armor so well but hej :slight_smile: maybe that is something from the past as well.

The gauss and xbow had a good improvement.
Maybe I need to get used to it some more and adjust.
it feels like its way too easy to hit directly with the gauss gun.
Is that because of the nature of its beam? or because of auto aim?
Eitherway the xbow and tau pinpoint accuracy compared to hl1 feels swapped in black mesa.
On the gauss it feels like you have 10 times the amount of more pixels to hit with in your crosshair field then you got with the zoomed xbow.
Although it feels realistic to the respective weapon psychics.
in terms of weapon gameplay balance; the gauss and zoomed xbow way of hitting could be traded off or tweaked a bit.

What can I say it feels so trivial because I’m happy with each passing update.
But yeah it is important its core gameplay.

Spawn protection is shit. If this stays in the game it should at least become optional in future…
Some other thing that I noticed really bad in these 1on1s was the speed of rockets and grenades.
In BM it’s impossible to dodge grenadelauncher in HL1 it’s hard, too… but atleast it’s possible.

Yeah i agree gauss now is much better, crossbow with insta zoom is also very good change. Game is going in correct direction.

But tracer effect is super annoing. Still feels broken.

Yeah i agree about the grenade launcher speed and the rocket speed.
Being able to dodge them with difficulty gives more depth to the game and overall balance.
Room for improvements.

Care to elaborate why spawn protection is shit?

The way I see it we oldskool hldm players started to turn it into a skill.
Training pre aimed positioned shots on a consistent bases.
However I consider it more challenging not only to know where the player spawned at.
But to be able to take that player down when he/she moved from the spawn point.
Exactly what spawn protection does :slight_smile:
Just gotto pay more attention to the spawned players movement before you shoot.
If that spawned player where able to shoot you first due to spawn protection yeah I can see that being shit.
The stacked player still has the upper hand by a long shot over the spawned player as it should be.

The new gameplay dimension this would bring would be like; walls usage and defence to cover yourself more.
Not by concidence is dodging and defence some under developed skill I’ve seen on AG players apart from like 20%. of its player base through out the years.
In the era of vortex & Garpies prime this was seen more commonly.
Breaking map control is where the mind game and skill is at.
just more difficult to maintain control then I’d say :slight_smile:

  • fixes spawn mines ++ calibrates for different skill levels amongst players.
    Remember the gap between regular seen hldm players and AG players?
    This is one of the reasons you’d often find players leaving the server.
    Specially new players consider spawn killing old concept and lame if I’m not mistaken.
    Correct me if Im wrong.

When some player spawns near me and I can’t deal damage to him because he got temporary godmode - it makes me rage. If he would always spawn very far away from me, I could force him to spawn on weak respawns to never let him get a nice position (strategic but really lame imo, I hope they will reintroduce the old HL1/HL2 respawn system soon).

When I made the hard work and killed my enemy, I should get some advantage over my enemy. If it was a really close fight, I survive with few hp and my enemy can just respawn besides me in godmode and 1shot me with pistol headshot that’s really shit. Sorry for this dirty speaking but I can’t find any reason why this should be possible… In games you fight and win to gain advangtage. That’s how games work. If you win a fight in DotA2 you get better items, more XP -> better spells/stats… If you win in CS you gain money for better guns… If you win in Quake you get the Red armor or Megahealth… If you lose you have to think about your errors and try to do better next time. Also think about how to handle your disadvantage. Think about what your enemy will try to do and react on his errors. Anyways… Back to the respawn situation… Now when you take care about what happened in the game and you survive a fight with low HP… You should be able to remember where spawnpoints are on the map (“ok… I know I can respawn there”)… Then you know… “Ok I survived this fight with low hp, but atleast now I might have the weapon-advantage”… --> If you are not stupid, you preaim the playerspawn to not lose your weapon-advantage… And if your enemy is not stupid he will see that you preaim the next near respawn point and will react to this --> “Ok… I can see he is preaiming this spawn… Let’s wait until his gauss overcharges or until he moves away… So I will respawn later”… So… I don’t see what is unbalanced in these situations… Both players have the option to avoid the bad if they have some gamesense.

But on the other hand I know it would clearly be unbalanced to have spawn protection on spawnpoints like in crossfire… Imagine you barely won a fight, have a slightly good position and low HP… You got the crossbow and then your enemy respawns on crossbow, gauss, or MP5 balcony with spawnprotection, easily gets the nearest weapon, because he is invulnerable and kills you ez pz. Wow… GG

And again… it takes practise to predict player respawns and pick the next playerspawn to preaim… It’s based on practise, gamesense and memory and that’s why it should not get removed. It’s the same in TDM and 1v1. If a Team manages to get control over an important area, they have to be able to cover it… If enemies can simply respawn in godmode and deal almost unavoidable damage to them, that’s no control…

And maps should always be designed with a certain gameplay in mind. Either it should be about a certain weapon… Or it should be about the LJ, or it should be about armors. Or you can make a map where you have 1 area with weak weapons, but much armor… and another area with few armor, but more strong weapons (endcamp, one of my favourite TDM maps ever). There are many ways to balance and design gameplay on a map but in the end I think that each map should have multiple areas where each area offers different possibilites to the player. Depending on the situation, some areas can become more important than others… So… If you play endcamp for example, you can control either the “important” area (Gauss Area + Crossbow corner) where you have a lot of open playerspawns to gather spawnkills (increase your Teams score), strong weapons, but very few health and armor… Or you can fall back with your team and group in the disadvantaged area (Crossbow recharger area / recharger room)… You can get a lot of mid tiered weapons and great amounts of armor in that area. So… At the same time that area is not very rushable… It’s possible for the advantaged team to get picks, but it’s not really possible to rush the entire enemy team in that area (unless you have godlike crossbow aim and headshot everything ). In my opinion that map is absolutely great because the gameplay isn’t chaotic and you have great options to play as a team (advantaged team: player 1 covers the front, player 2 covers gauss and backside, player 3 covers most respawn points and helps where he must… if your team is disadvantaged, it can do it in a very similar way (until every teammember got decent armor, weapons and is ready to attack somewhere) and if one player of your team is stupid or gets picked off, the enemy (advantaged) team gets the opportunity to increase their team’s score by getting spawnkills in their area.

About the deathcam… I don’t think it’s good for competetive play. I see no problems with it on public servers but I would really like to have an option to disable it for playing matches, because it gives important information that can be gained elseway (mapknowledge, gamesense, reading your opponents intents --> skill)…

What I love about this discussion is that in that post you make some great points.

damn I ran out of smokes :smiley: Let me get some from the gas station.

re: yeah I can see that being a pain in the ass.
It is quite the flip side.
Getting spawn killed is a pain in the ass, as much as it turned into a skill at the same time.
Nomatter how much someone trains it the element of luck has a good influence to determine the outcome.
Seeing in actuality we are talking about a randomiser, well a little more then a randomiser.
I suppose that luck factor always is the case with or without spawn protection.

as you worded it the “really Shit” moments.
It can happen when you are low on HP and someone just spawned next to you with or without spawn protection.
I know, that would be missing the point, as with godmode you would be unable to do something in return at that very split second.
such occasions is not something gamers would want to have in a game, can be rather annoying yeah.
At least I wouldn’t want it unless it gave more back in return.
Then I might not care as much about the really shit moments which already were shit anyway.
It got me thinking about what else it does in return.
The spawned player makes the sound, you got the gear and know the position exactly.
The newly spawned player does not have neither.
He or she does have the possibility to get reaction time advantage if their opponent did not guess the spawn chain right or just miss guessed the spawn point from noise.
I think it is extremely difficult for the newly spawned player to get that reward.

On stalkyard for example how easy is to spawn kill I’d say insanely easy.
It is low & quick reward that to me always felt like I didn’t fully earn it, a steal.
because they were being treated as equally big on the scoreboard.
“frags” determined by a randomiser aka the spawn system and a bit of pre-aim.
Sorry man grinding is okey but I rather have that randomiser decrease the outcome a bit in the big picture.
In other words just making spawn frags count for more by giving the spawned player more chance.
See how good you or I can keep control then.
It be more entertaining to watch for sure.

The stacked player has the health, his mojo gun arsenal & movement advantage to give that newly spawned player chase (LJ & Gauss) and basically give hell.
Like a lion to a little lamb.
I prefer to maintain this type of gamesense it brings to the table instead of just pre aiming spawn points.
Like a god lifting his finger some.
Notice the difference in chance? :smiley:
I rather have it more difficult.
Being in that challenge to build up and break control is what I loved so much about TDM.

The question becomes ; What has a better trade off for fun considering all players?
Does it take away something competitive? and what?
I think other then what people have become accustomed too I don’t think it takes away much.
It does change it.

Infact it would change the phase, mind games and elite skill reward resembling more to the times you missed fury.
From ]D[, pmers, storm, [pc] times.

Continuing on furies example; It will be different when engaging a fight.
One could consider the spawn points around you.
Or after the fight is finished, muscle memory train yourself to charge your gauss up for a quick escape to a saver place. (or just longjump away behind a wall).
While being in the fight, in the moment train yourself to be able to guess your opponents hp and armor with some good accuracy just before you give the final blow.
So when the player is dead and the fight should be over; no you still have to think about after the fight till you get health and armor.
When you are “save”
You got the movement advantage (LJ & gauss) to get that recovery quickly too.
And most of the time will do just that anyway.
How amazing would such moments be compared to now when a elite player makes it save by putting more emphasis on it after a fight like thhat.
More defensive & offensive decision making to be made., instead of the usual.
I’d say that be entertaining to watch with this type of depth.

By the way “waiting for your opponents gauss to overcharge” is nothing & mostly crossfire oriented.
Simply get ammo fast to keep the phase up, you can play with the time from the force respawn timer in your mind.
To decide when it would be the best moment to break it and rewind the gauss gun.
But you are right that is the single moment on crossfire for a dead player to toss around with.

" The deathcam… I don’t think it’s good for competetive play. I see no problems with it on public servers but I would really like to have an option to disable it for playing matches, because it gives important information that can be gained elseway (mapknowledge, gamesense, reading your opponents intents --> skill)…"

I agree with you about the deathcam.
We can’t get everything :_)
It is a remake afterall.
If the deathcam stays, no problem.
I would want a taunt button to do a little dance and hold by balls ffs!!
If people are able to skip it and respawn quicker then this skill has use.
The trade off would be:
A) exactly knowing your opponents stats and information / lose possible precious time.
B) have a good feel for it and take the chance to respawn quicker = skill advantage.
But yeah thats the most what I can make of it.
Rather not have a deathcam.
I think it is one of those things that brings skill gaps together while not removing skill completely.
Redefining some sure.
Maybe that is a good thing.

On the spawn protection im good no matter which side it floats.
I’ll adapt and play if I like the game like I like hldm :slight_smile:
That is one thing that is for certain with the original you can’t go much wrong.
Improvements can be great or fail.
Spawn protection is nothing new.
I do wonder if spawn protection would be as good in TDM 5v5 situations as in 1v1 or 2v2 matches.
Haven’t thought enough about that yet, at the moment I would say in 5vs5 matches spawn protection would suck ass.

maybe the spawnprotection was more fair if it was godmode for 2 seconds, but at the same time (while invulnerable) you should not be able to shoot or pick up weapons --> you would not be able to deal or take damage but you would get some time to move away from your enemy… you would not be able to yolo-steal weapons easily right after spawn…

The intention is that moving or firing will break spawn protection immediately. It may not be working, the implementation was a bit rushed. Will get someone to look at it.

I don’t understand why a fresh spawner should be able to shoot first… it should be protection only and not a free first attack (hit)…

@fury so what you mean is that a player who spawns in spawn protection shouldn’t be able to shoot immiediately?

Well this has to be tested… But in my opinion spawnprotection should only be good for moving away from your spawn… not for attacking your enemy or stealing weapons quick.
like… when you respawn in the current version of BM :smiley: M, you are invisible and invulnerable for ~ 2 seconds… you can move, but as soon as you shoot, your protection disappears.

i think it was better if you could not shoot or pick up weapons while in spawnprotection. maybe also make it 1 or 1.5 seconds only… so when you spawn, you would be invisible (slowly fading towards full visibility) and invulnerable for ~1.5 seconds, but while in that state you should only be able to move away from your spawn (so people can’t preaim your playerspawn). You should not be able to shoot or pick up weapons while in spawnprotection… This way fresh spawners can’t get preaimed easily and they would not have a free save first attack. Spawn-protection could also instantly cancel as soon as a fresh spawner picks up a weapon.

Aha, i see now.
So you want that while you are “Spawn protected” you can move, but not shoot.
Interesting.
I personally don’t think this is needed, but if the majority agrees it needs
to be implemented, i’ll go along.

There is a slightly better option in my opinion.It comes from Half Life 2: Deathmatch.
Instead of a shield protecting you and dissapearing as soon you move, in HL2 :smiley: M
your health decreases from 1000 to 100 in 2-3 seconds.People can still hit you, but
you won’t take actuall damage until the counter stops at 100.

No need for invisibility.
I agree with fury 1 or 1.5 seconds should be enough.
you can move and pick up weapons but not shoot untill the spawn timer has worn off.
This would mean when you spawn and press fire it would block/jam the gun.
+The spawn protection wears off instantly when you would of picked up a weapon.
as fury mentioned this would mean you cant get pre-aimed from spawn point, nor can the spawned player shoot you first.
Ideal.

Make it visually noticeable when the spawn protection has worn off.
Visually by the HUD for the spawned player in question and for the other players by a visual effect on his/her player model.
Although invisibility has become universal to recognize as spawn protection, I think in a fasted paced deaht match game like this it can cause awkward situations.
There for I suggest a semi transparent effect on the player model for the spawn protection duration with enough light/brightness.
So it is noticeable right away and remains close to those broadly recognized spawn protection characteristics.
For the Hud it should be something small that tells you got spawn protection.
Experienced players will master the timing for both offensive & defensive tactics.
But I feel having it displayed in the HUD will easily let new players know what is up.
Make it blink or something in the left or right side of the screen bottom or top. not the middle, and especially not right in the center of your screen.
If you press fire make that HUD message “Spawn Protection” flash red.
Perhaps add a weapon ammunition empty sound to it.
This would only mean the glock sound because going by this example “if you pick up a weapon the spawn proteciton instantly wears off”

++ Make it possible to skip the deathcam and respawn quicker, it is the most important for gameplay pleasure.

i think it should get displayed below your crosshair.

Ofcourse not, anything in the middle or the center of your hud would block visual.
One would want a clear visual so you can aim when his/her spawn protection wears off.

I think it depends a lot on how the text font will look, how bold it is and how distracting it is…
but yea maybe there could be a green, yellow or cyan vignette effect as long as you are spawn-protected instead of text below crosshair…
Maybe that’s a better design choice.

Edit: Or you could display a small shield-icon below the crosshair…

That shield icon actually isn’t a bad idea.

Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.