Surface Tension Uncut - Re-Adding Cut Areas/Scenes (Expansion Project)

General Development Source 1
#2141

Don’t have time to do a big write up right now as I’m working as hard as I can to get this damn project finished. I’ve created a thread for OaR Uncut/Expanded, please keep all discussion to do with OaR over there now. If it’s in here, it detracts from my ability to read useful feedback about ST Uncut.

And thanks to those of you who posted propper, it’s an amazing utility for me, actually. I haven’t made full use of it yet (as I’ve already mostly worked around the problems when I didn’t know about it), but I can see it being INCREDIBLY useful for OaR Uncut. I’ve already used it to optimize C2A5H a bit (I’ve converted lots of the beams on the map from func_details to models - this is much cheaper to render as it only has to load the beam into the memory once and render it again and again, whereas with a func_detail the game treats them as a unique object every time). So thanks. I wouldn’t have known about it otherwise. Unfortunately it’s doing little to solve the quantization errors on the furnace, as those micro-gaps seem to be being created by VBSP during the compile process, and propper simply taps into this compile process. Annoying. I’m trying out a few workarounds now. Trying to make the lathed sections of the furnace models with the rest of it being func_detail.

Due to all these changes I’m making for the final, I’ve decided against my previous judgement - to have an RC3. HOWEVER, it will be VERY different to previous RCs, in that I will be releasing the final, 100% complete version 1 - 2 days after. It’s a final chance to clear out anything that’s bothering people. However, it is different in that having reams and reams of feedback for this version will not be useful in the slightest. It’s just for picking up on small, easy to fix errors before I ship the final. RC3 should be ready this evening/tommorowish. I would ask that feedback for RC3 be kept to a very concise standard, only dealing with simple things, and I would also ask that the turnaround for feedback be very quick. I would appreciate both those things. I’m now determined, after a week of illness, to get this finished so I can start OaR Uncut.

EDIT: Oh and Conti, just so you know, the railings being “uneven” as you call it, is unfixable. There are hardly any railing models which the BM team uses, so where you have nonstandard heights/lengths you have to combine them and make them overlap. That’s just a byproduct of that. It’s livable. Using the curved ends has solved some of the weirdness on the ramp, but I can’t do much elsewhere, sadly. The BM Team had the luxury of having modellers who could model railings for entire rooms for them, they didn’t have to use existing ones like I do. It’s how the big studios seem to do it, Valve operate in much the same way too. They have a few (4 or 5) generic railing models, and all other railings are modelled for entire rooms (for example, on the stairwell on cs_office, ALL the railings for the stairwell are a single model). I can’t do it.

EDIT 2: Oh, one other thing for you Conti: the ladder type you’re advocating can’t be used there, as it’s supposed to be connected to a wall. That’s why I didn’t use it. It has connectors to it which are supposed to connect to a wall, and if you have it free-floating like the two ladders you pointed out are, it ends up looking mighty strange.

#2142

Text, hope you’re feeling better.

Great to hear the news about the release of v1.0-RC3. As I suggested, I really think it’s necessary, considering the massive amount of feedback you received (and the recent discovery of Propper), in order to make certain that all the i’s have been dotted and all the t’s have been crossed. It’s better to have numerous eyes reviewing/confirming the changes rather than only your two sickly and bleary ones. :sick:

As I mentioned earlier, please re-review my feedbacks as I’ve added some additional items (it FINALLY ended at item #171 O_o ), along with additional images in support of some of my previous submissions. Due to time restrictions, if some of the recent acceptable ones can’t be incorporated into the RC3 release, please consider them for v1.0 Final.

Hang in there, Text, you’re in the [COLOR=‘Lime’]homestretch!!!

#2143

Oh this is really unfortunate, but I understand. It is fair.
Thanks for your time to checking this out.

#2144

No problem. It’s a shame, because I’d like to have it fixed now. But, if it’s any consolation, with the changes I’ve made to the railings (curved endings) it does look A LOT better, no question. So thanks for suggesting that. A simple enough solution, but the wires in my mind just never quite crossed in that way.

@Dadster - while I SERIOUSLY appreciate your minute attention to extremely fine detail, for the next version, and just for future reference, I wouldn’t be too worried about the small grasses and tiny plants clipping into things anymore, unless they’re fairly serious. I explained in the changelog, though I’ll repeat it here to make sure you understand, those little plants are procedurally placed by VBSP during the compile process. The mapper has no control over where they are placed on the displacement. This is an issue which affects pretty much all Source maps which use this type of detail prop, particularly where they’re fitting into small space.

There isn’t STRICTLY speaking, any control that mappers have over where the sprites are placed. Unfortunately Valve only added that with L4D (which is one engine version above Black Mesa), where you can create func_detail_blocker along the sides of roads and around objects to prevent VBSP from placing detail sprites there. It’s a very cool little entity which I’ve enjoyed using when mapping for CS:GO and I’m a bit surprised that they hadn’t thought of it A LOT sooner than they did. Whether or not a texture will produce detail sprites from VBSP is determined on a per-texture basis. What this means is that a mapper can control where the sprites are placed by blending a texture which doesn’t use sprites, with a texture that does. That’s how I’ve controlled it on my maps - nearly all the sand surfaces (which VBSP creates plant sprites for) have a blend with a rock surface (which VBSP doesn’t). I’ve then “painted” the rock texture where I don’t want things to grow (on road/wall edges, etc). I could have done it using a “blank” but otherwise identical sand texture which doesn’t allow detail sprites, but just having one single texture on the displacement isn’t as aesthetically pleasing or as realistic as having two, and there’d also be hardly any plants at all.

The problem here is that it’s not always feasible to do that. It’s hard to describe precisely in words, so I’ll show you a picture. This is based on one plant growing complaint you’ve had near the LAV Courtyard.

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Each “point” on the displacement grid represents an area where you can “paint” the rock texture. As you can see, having rock painted on either end, to prevent the plants from growing, makes the sand VERY sparse and it looks weird. This is even worse on some of the other displacements where there are only 2 displacement vertices visible or so. While it looks fine, there’ll now be hardly any plants and hardly any sand, which I don’t like. I could increase the resolution of the displacement from 3 to the maximum of 4, but that’s exponentially more expensive to render (and also uncompressable), and I’d have to do it in A LOT of places. The only other alternative is to chop the displacements up more to force the resolution I need, but that will make sewing them together even more difficult and will STILL increase rendering costs.

I’ve tried to explain myself clearly here because you’re probably under the impression that all those clipping small plants are lazy mapping. They’re not. Unfortunately, it’s yet another limitation of the Source engine. I’ve had to compromise on it. I’m happy to accept a few plants clipping around here and there, in exchange for nice looking displacements/plants.

#2145

Text, thanks for taking the time to provide a detailed explanation concerning clipping issues with plants/grasses. I never assumed that they existed as a result of your mapping abilities or techniques and thought all along that it was a limitation of the Source engine that you’re using.

All of the plant/grass related clipping issues that I reported, for the most part, were obvious and easily visible or noticeable and tended to be in and around paths that a player would normally take (again, in most cases). There are still dozens and dozens more that exist which I did not report, that are very minor in nature or are located in out of the way places. They don’t really need to be addressed and are inconsequential.

In the end, the final decision on what actions should be taken is entirely in your hands. Again, I stress that a certain level of consistency be adopted in your decision making process, in that as many as possible of the obvious ones be corrected, especially the black and brown plants and grasses clipping through objects like pipes, rubble, vehicles, curbs, bricks and tires.

In any event, my feedback for RC3 won’t include any additional plant/grass clipping issues, unless some new ones surface as a result of your new rocks, or I come across a new and obvious one, which I feel is very unlikely at this point.

Of course, moving on beyond ST Uncut, I expect OaR Uncut will almost entirely be indoors, so we won’t have to deal with any plant/grass clipping issues whatsoever. Amen to that, as my eyes are starting to get bleary too!!!

#2146

Apologies to all for this double posting, but I want this post to be free and clear of any previous ones, as it’s my first
[COLOR=‘Orange’]Preliminary Feedback for ST Uncut v1.0-RC3.

Text, as I’ve done previously with RC2, I’m jumping the gun on the feedback for RC3. I fully expect that these issues will exist in RC3, as I have not reported them previously and I have not seen anyone else report them either. Due to the narrow window between the release of RC3 and v1.0 Final, I want to get this feedback on RC3 to you as quickly as possible so that you can effect fixes and corrections, as you see fit.

So, here we go again, one last time…

Preliminary Feedback For ST Uncut v1.0-RC3

  1. Tank yard, rooftop - Rooftop front edge kick plate clipping through adjacent rooftop beam. https://imgur.com/oamkf and https://imgur.com/llSnZ.
  2. Tank yard - Once the idle sounds for the Zombie in the rooftop storage room are triggered, and he’s not disposed of, his idle sounds can be heard throughout the rest of the areas in C2A5H, be it inside pipes, the furnace room or in gasworks.
  3. Furnace room - Following the disposal of the satchel/pipe HECU, I don’t hear any gunfire sounds in the battle between the HECU and Zombies/Headcrabs that occurs on the main floor of the furnace room. I see the illuminations from the MP5 muzzle flashes and the subtitles state that MP5’s are firing, but I don’t hear them. However, I do hear the surviving HECU shooting at me, as I come into their view. Also, I do hear the MP5 firing sounds from the satchel/pipe HECU.
  4. Gasworks - On the upper floor of the security office, a pair of mounting struts for the ceiling duct work are clipping through the ceiling. https://imgur.com/OyYgG and https://imgur.com/yMxiO.
  5. Gasworks - To be consistent with the same type door at the opposite end of the room, I suggest adding a door control box (with illuminated red button) to the left of the I-beam, centered on the second panel, at the same height as the other door’s control box. Also, move the status lights off of the I-beam (doesn’t seem as an appropriate install there) up onto and centered on the first full panel to the right of the I-beam, slightly above the vertical panel separator. https://imgur.com/GXi8B.
  6. Gasworks, storage room - If a fix has been found to stop sparks from arcing light fixtures from passing through walls, please apply it here as these sparks do so. If not, can the arcing mechanic be attached to the opposite end of this fluorescent light fixture to lessen the likelihood of it happening. https://imgur.com/7zxYp.
  7. Gasworks, storage room - Shouldn’t there be evidence of similar small pipes, that are mangled and ruptured, protruding from the opposite wall? https://imgur.com/5emrZ.
  8. Tank yard, rooftop - Can a more appropriate colored texture be used for the end pieces on this slanted roof? The existing one looks like it’s concrete based. Maybe consider no end pieces at all, if that works and suits you. https://imgur.com/ZqzmP.
  9. Tank yard, rooftop - Similar issue as in item #1, where the rooftop edge kick plate is clipping through, in this case, the side of a vertical beam. https://imgur.com/KGEIE.
  10. Tank yard, rooftop - Seems odd that there’s no rooftop edge kick plate on this portion of the rooftop, yet it’s evident throughout the rest of it. To be consistent, I suggest adding a section, with a damaged end to reflect the blowout that occurred in the female bathroom. https://imgur.com/Z5IOl. Here’s the damaged sustained by the kick plate on the adjoining wall. https://imgur.com/Xd2OM.
  11. Tank yard, by the security hut - The five wall mounting brackets for the large gray vertical pipe do not make contact with the wall. https://imgur.com/kv0k9 and https://imgur.com/dAtyG and https://imgur.com/YVIZw.
  12. Tank yard at the top of the roadway ramp - Here’s a texture flicker issue. https://imgur.com/T3xdg. See the attached pictures below for an illustration of the problem. Possibly related to this texture flicker issue may be this texture seam issue, situated directly below it in the drop-down recessed area next to the roadway ramp. I had reported this issue earlier, as item #85. https://imgur.com/rrEWo.
  13. Tank yard - This rectangular darker texture seems out of place here and does not match the texture used for the rest of the wall surrounding these large doors. https://imgur.com/y8BV3. This same darker texture, however, is used on the adjoining wall and seems to have been wrapped around the corner, inadvertently.
  14. Tank yard - Consider adding some steps here, to this platform, to match the ones at the opposite end. https://imgur.com/VyBYm.
  15. Tank yard, female bathroom - Three pieces of rebar, are floating in mid air. https://imgur.com/S189R and https://imgur.com/6L5s4.

This is the end of my “[COLOR=‘Orange’]Preliminary Feedback For ST Uncut v1.0-RC3”

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#2147

I also just noticed this one, not a big deal but Second Map just after the battle with the Tank, the area where the zombies get overwhelmed by snarks, the other side of the vent is solid. I know you said easy fixes, I’m not sure how easy that would be to fix, but I figure I’ll report it anyway.

#2148

Fixed it. Thanks for pointing it out.

@Dadster - just so you know, I just went through your entire list (all 170 points) comprehensively, checking off each point as I fixed them. I’ll have you know (ignoring all the minor plant clipping ones, which are, for the most part, FAR more work than they’re worth) I’ve addressed ALL the ones which were doable/I thought necessary. Obviously there’s still going to be quite a lot “unchecked” on the sole basis of my exclusions, but I just thought you’d like to know that. You did me the service of spending all that time writing up those points, the VERY LEAST I could do was read and check them ALL. I’m just going to thank you one more time for going over the map in that INSANE detail. It’s helped, a lot, even if it has made me want to pull my hair out in my current ill state. I’m not gonna lie, I probably missed a few out here and there, I’m only human, I’ve got finite time, finite patience, finite ability, and I’m rather ill - but for the most part I hope you know all that work on the feedback was worth it. I took a lot in.

The RC3 should be ready to release when I get up tomorrow, only a few minor things to fix (my current comprehensive checklist of things I WANT TO/CAN fix, having combed through the past 7 or 8 pages is 8 items long, with only 2 majorish jobs, one of which is the godforsaken furnace). The turnaround for the very, very, definitely, 100% final version will be literally 1 - 2 days, if that. So please, I ask the community - get your feedback to me quickly tomorrow. It’s more of a very quick pilot run for the actual final version.

#2149

Thanks Text, for your kind words and for taking the time to review all of my many feedback items. That’s all one can ask for, that they are all read and considered. I never expected that all of them would be implemented. My role was to find and report whatever was obvious or inconsistent or didn’t make real-world sense and leave the decision making process to you, as it’s your project.

I do have a perfectionist trait in me and I’m pleased and proud in what I was able to find, though I never thought the list would grow to 171 items, and the many more for the previous releases. Yeah, it’s been very gratifying and very tiring, all at the same time, but knowing that I’ve made a difference and a valuable contribution towards an impressive project such as this, makes it all worthwhile.

Concerning RC3, I’ll be checking off which of my feedback items have been addressed. If I come across any that were not addressed but are similar in nature or in the same category as ones that were, and on the surface seem simple enough to implement, I’ll reiterate them to you, in the event that they may have fallen through the cracks. If any are easily doable and fit within your vision/design concepts, then act on them. For those that aren’t, or that you are aware of and have already declined to act on, just ignore them. The most important thing is to bring them to light, for consideration, in order for a decision to be made. This is our last kick at the can, so let’s make it count.

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From Mr. Someguy
“I also just noticed this one, not a big deal but Second Map just after the battle with the Tank, the area where the zombies get overwhelmed by snarks, the other side of the vent is solid. I know you said easy fixes, I’m not sure how easy that would be to fix, but I figure I’ll report it anyway. The other side of the vent is solid.”

Nice find, Mr. Someguy!

#2150

Alright…sorted.

If you have anything you feel is important that I’ve missed, let me know. I’ll then tell you if I intentionally left it out or forgot it. There are a fair few I’ve intentionally missed, including a couple of “major” suggestions.

I’ve finally fixed the lathing on the furnace! Oh happy days! That was the last major thing on the entire map set which was really bugging me. Praise be to propper! The guy who created it is a wonderful person. Should be releasing in a few hours.

#2151

Glad I posted that link to the propper. :smiley:

#2152

Congrats, the bug with the AI and making the game hang (and eventually crash) is still there… received a few crashes while playing through your maps again… though it was primarily because of the agrunts/hgrunts spotting me through the hole.

(it crashed right after I dropped through the vent and the HECU spotted me again) May I suggest modifying the subroutine in the script to not spot the player at all till all the entities involved in the fight on the opposing faction are dead? Basically like the vort spotting you through the wall on C2A5I…

#2153

To put it simply, AI related crashes have NOTHING to do with me. It’s possible for me to make a scenario where the game is more likely to crash by having conflicting AI scripted sequences/schedules/relationships, but I only ever use those extensively during the big battles. If you’re getting consistent problems with AI crashing…it’s more than likely something on your end. I never get any, and it’s never really been reported either. Source AI is a bit funny. If you can tell me how you got the bug I can see if I can replicate it/others can too, but otherwise, I’m going to treat it as a problem on your end, because I’ve never experienced anything like that, nor have I had many reports of it either.

I’ve hit a few snags, run into a few bugs of my own, I think I MAY have just found the solution to buggy sparks, we’ll see, but I’m still on track for a release today. I am 99% sure of that.

#2154

^ Source has always been finicky.

Basically, this is the battle in the alleyway, battle starts, half-way through the alien grunts spot me because the 2 HECU are hiding behind props (can’t be seen, and vise-versa), the two HECU could see me too, but they didn’t attempt to shoot at me because of an AI Routine conflict. After the 2 hgrunts die, I wipe the Alien grunts out, no problem from there…

… until the vent drop into the garage. Pop out to shoot the HECU there, and then after the first round is fired the game hangs.

I can’t fool around with the AI unless it’s outside the .cfg files (more to the point I don’t know how, or I would’ve implemented the ability for the alien controllers to manipulate physics objects like the grav gun does in HL2).

As I said, it could be a problem inside the subroutine scripts you use for your battles in c2a5g-i, the best way to avoid this would be to just have them spot eachother through the wall, much like the vort on stairs on C2A5I so the player doesn’t get targeted… in all honesty, it’s just that area, that’s trouble, not the others, I have no idea why…

#2155

I’ve just locked in C2A5G and C2A5H. They’re ready for final compile. C2A5I shouldn’t take me anymore than 10 minutes to fix the final few problems. This means RC3 will be hitting in an hour or so! Get excited! This version is really good. I would be comfortable right now saying that this is the finished, done product. But I’m not going to. Testers, please get me your feedback as quickly as possible once I release. The final version will hit in 1 - 2 days.

#2156

I was just thinking, why not remake the railings with your own props you can make and use? Hehehe.

#2157

Feedback is for tomorrow, gonna get some sleep now!

#2158

Hey, maybe we can convince Text to start all over again from scratch, to really take advantage of the Propper prop tool, eh?
Who’s brave enough to step forward and ask him? :lol:

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They’re waiting for you Text… in the release chamberrrr.

#2159

I just caused a mapping resonance cascade.

But, in all seriousness, I found a few problems in my final test runthrough which I unfortunately won’t allow myself to not fix. It’ll be another hour. But, the final product’s gonna be good. Damn good. I will release it very shortly, no doubt at all.

EDIT: Everything’s fixed and ready to go, except for one thing, which I will play with until I’m sure it’s perfect. The LAV courtyard battle’s balance has never quite been how I wanted it to be, so I’m gonna tweak it until the aliens win by 2 - 3 units every time. That fight currently deals in extremes. It’s normally either 4 - 5 aliens or 4 - 5 marines.

EDIT 2: I’ve done it. It’s perfect. I’m so glad I decided to fuck around with it. It’s a LOT better. A tonne better. Final compiles on their way up.

#2160

^ Excellent. Look forward to my next playthrough.

Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.