It’s not that complicated of a mechanic to demonstrate from a conceptual point of view. But I agree that it’s something that should only be in the Xen factory level - as Ram says it’s confusing for the player to keep second guessing themselves throughout the game. Even if it is only a few times it’ll bring on not only sense of frustration of thinking “dammit! I shouldn’t have shot that one,” but also next time; “dammit! I should have shot that one!”
It works well in the Xen factory post Questionable Ethics for the reasons explained by others above. It might even be a novel touch to free one un-collered Vortigaunt from a cell in QE. He steps out of his cell, looks at an exit, turns to stare at you for a second and then walks to and through the exit.
The way to introduce that in Xen is similar to the ways you’re given glimpses of G-man, in gameplay mechanical terms - behind plate glass.
I think the fact that so many people realise it’s part of the story is reason enough for it to be in. Like most people, on my first run through I think I probably just shot them all in that factory room. On my second run through however, I realised that they were sedate and it added a deeper level to Half-Life, considering what we know in Half-Life 2.
There’s really nothing to lose here. So what if a few people kill them on sight? It doesn’t interrupt the story, but for those who don’t shoot on sight, it adds a lot more to the story.
I think he’s onto something here. I’ve seen hurt antlions in episode 2 backaway fearfully from me before. But this is probably something that won’t be implemented at this stage.
Just as long as you don’t say to put it behind bulletproof glass, like a million other suggestions i’ve heard over the years, I’d love to hear it.
The problem is, there’s no reason for the player to not shoot one unless they were to charge your suit or something. As soon as a controller were to enter the room they’d all turn against you anyway, so you’re better off killing them while their numbers are small & you have the advantage. And why would you want to frustrate the player? How do you know it’ll frustrate & not just confuse?
God damn it, there isn’t even bulletproof glass in Xen.
For those who don’t shoot on sight, it adds a little bit to the story… If they’ve bothered to ask about it, because it’s otherwise indistinguishable from a bug without that bullet-poof glass scripted sequence.
Maybe instead of an actual gameplay function it could instead exist merely to establish an emotional connection. Maybe to make the player question his actions or to see a different side of the whole thing.
Not true. I’ve come to the conclusion and so have many others, likely due to what we know in Half-Life 2. As I’ve said, there’s nothing to lose here.
I wouldn’t have thought it would be too much work to put this in; you’d just need to change the attitudes of the AI in that room. It would be a shame if this doesn’t go in as I remember talking about this way back in 2007/8.
Dias, I never said anything about plate glass being used in Xen. :rolleyes:
I was using plate glass as a metaphor, which is why I said “in gameplay mechanical terms” and not literally. I’m not a developer and I don’t think I have the skills to figure out how to do that properly, but what I can do is communicate to you what I felt in that moment and what kind of impact it had on the game for me. If a dev can see value in that opinion and work it into the game then great, if not then meh, it was worth a shot.
I discovered that the Vortigaunts were passive on my first playthrough.
It didn’t feel like a glitch, I moved slowly deeper and deeper in and as I realised that they meant me no harm I began to feel pity for them because on a basic level I felt that they must be slaves.
Suddenly this fight isn’t just about Earth, while all I was worried about was a conquered humanity, now I’m looking at a mirror image of how complete that conquest will be for our race.
Suddenly human is not nearly so important as sentient. It’s a massive paradigm shift. I want these aliens to be freed and it’s up to the man who frees to do it.
It turned the end of the game into more than just a boss fight, freedom wasn’t in danger of falling, freedom had fallen for these people and I needed to restore it and end the conflict.
It wasn’t a small feature, it was a defining one. Lets not assume that everyone who played Half-Life was gun-hoe okay? Because this is Half-Life we’re talking about - the thinking shooter.
Can you see how I would be confused by that? The only way that would stop players from simply shooting Vorts on sight would be the glass & there’s really no way to convey their harmlessness if they’re dead.
How did you realize it was intentional when it seems so utterly random? I mean, look at the maps logically:
Black Mesa - always shoot you on sight.
c4a1 - Two appear at the start of the map. They shoot you on sight. No controllers around.
c4a1a - Several vorts rain from the sky. They shoot you on sight. Several controllers around.
c4a1b - The vorts outside will only attack if they see you fire your weapon. The Vorts inside will always attack. Vorts outside won’t attack even if the Grunts/Controllers attack you, they just wait until you attack back.
c4a1c - All vorts are passive until you attack. Some work on machinery, others stand around. No controllers around. (And the barrels are unbreakable?)
c4a1d - They shoot you on sight. There are controllers around.
c4a1e - Vorts shoot on sight. There are controllers around.
c4a3 - Nihilanth’s chamber. Vorts shoot on sight.
I don’t know if it’s just wildly inconsistant, or the triggers in the maps are just broken. (especially c4a1b)
As much as I love Half-Life, it really doesn’t require that much thought to play. There’s very little you can’t solve with just shooting & even then it’s pretty self-explanatory.
And what of the people who haven’t played HL2? I didn’t know the Vortigaunts would be friendly in HL2 when I first played HL1 & I certainly didn’t expect this to change while I was shooting up their lair.
Yes there is: It’s indistinguishable from a glitch.
I can understand your points (excuse me for not quoting you bit for bit), let me clarify that by “thinking shooter” I meant more thinking as in filling in the story than I did tomb raider-esque puzzler. I guess I left that a little vague.
And yes, I do realise that it’s a tricky thing to introduce in the Xen factory level. But just because I can’t figure it out doesn’t mean to say there is no solution.
I can’t really explain how I understood that something was different. I mean, it was just a feeling and it’s hard to get all empirical about that and prove my perspective is valid to you. After all it was just my perspective/opinion. I guess the only consistency is that pre-factory they pretty much always gun for you and post factory they do the same.
I guess it didn’t feel too strange because all of Xen was strange, this alien aspect of semi-peace introduced in the midst of aliens in their alien world is less of a contrast than it would have been if the aliens became passive in the facility.
What about those who did distinguish it? I understand that you’re saying it has the potential to break immersion for people who don’t understand what’s going on, what I’m saying is that I hope the devs have found a way to remove that confusion but keep the theme.
If anyone knows what Valve had to say about this then now’s the time to chip in.
EDIT:
Ah ha! What about a scripted ammo jam? Don’t you think that would provide enough of an opportunity for players to witness the passivity? I’m talking just two to three seconds here, only enough time to give you a hint.
Sorry, won’t work. That would require Gordon Freeman to know how to unjam his weapon and animations for each of the weapons.
Don’t get me wrong though, I’m glad you’re behind my idea. It really added depth to the game and I want Black Mesa to have it.
Pehaps it can be demonstrated before Xen, with sicentists.
One Half-Life scientists says: “They can’t all be hostile, can they?” They could add more lines about that sort of thing in game.
Mabie the player enters a side door (that was locked in Half-Life?) and comes across a scientist cowering in a corner with a Vortigaunt who wont attack unless the player hits it.
We’re talking about Black Mesa; people will have played Half-Life 2 by now. If you take Half-Life on its own then yes, it looks a lot like a glitch, but given what we know from Half-Life 2, it makes sense to include this in the game for the numerous reasons already given.
If people run and gun, they’ve lost nothing.
If on the very odd chance people notice it but accept it as a glitch, it’s hardly game breaking and was never a complaint in the original game.
If people notice it, the chances are they’ve played HL2 and realise that there’s more to the vortigaunts than mere soldiers.
From the story point of view, I always understood that they were tasked with different jobs. Those at Black Mesa were an invasion force and were tasked with killing everything; those on Xen are usually doing menial tasks with Controllers present. I thought that was the whole point of the Controllers: they control. Without the Controllers present, the vorts carry on doing whatever it is they were doing.
There’s always a solution, but the real quesion is: is it worth the effort needed for the result it creates? I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be done. I’m just saying that it should be done right, because doing it wrong would be worse than not doing it at all. There’s just simply more to lose than there is to gain from it.
If it were me, I’d probably be far more focused on why my weapons are jamming for the first & probably only time than whatever the scripted sequence is. I will say it’s a very clever idea & could work great in a game that already features weapon jamming. Just not BM.
Do not assume that. When I first saw a friend of mine playing a part of HL2 I decided to give it a try, but only after trying HL1. Had a well-recieved free remake of HL1 been available at the time, I can almost guarantee I would have played it before HL2. Hell, when designing a game, Valve always gets at least one playtester who’s never even played a videogame before. You never know who could be playing your game, but you always want them to enjoy it when they do.
I know Eion Kilant 739 has played HL2, yet he still didn’t realize the passive vortigaunts were intentional. Hell, I keep playing some of the maps repeatedly & I’m still not sure what parts are or aren’t intentional. (as for never being a complaint in the original, people were far too busy complaining about the rest of xen)
Except they don’t seem to have any influence at all if you’ve read what I posted about their behaviors in the different maps. Controller presence means nothing, both in map triggers & in the npc code.
I called it a glitch because I have never played another game in my life where hostile NPCs suddenly become passive without a cutscene showing it. Every instance of an NPC being passive has always been either an unintended glitch due to AI problems or making them unable to attack(, exept for Half-Life).
What I encountered in Half-Life made the game that much more fun to play through. I wanted what I percieved as a glitch to happen in Black Mesa because it contributed to the plot in a very good way. Half-Life was beginning to bore me due to the simplicity of the fights. All I ever did was kill everything I saw, preferably before it moves. This gave it depth.
Not necessarily, I’d guess there are already animations for your weapon being out of ammo, string a few of those together and I think it would work. I don’t think many people will be wondering if Gordon knows how to unjam his weapon when a Vort just looks at you as it passes you by not 10 meters ahead of you. Provided it has not happened before!
Yes I can fully agree with that at least, it’s not something that should be present pre-Xen factory at all (except QE maybe, and if so only once in an experiment setting) as you do need that level of gameplay consistency.
Hopefully the inconsistencies you brought up in your map analysis are already corrected, that is to say - removed.
I think Floyd was using the Controllers more as a rational behind their actions than something that actually influences their AI behaviour.
Oh yeah, and stop putting words in my mouth Floyd!
I was just saying that you knew they were friendly in HL2, yet you still assumed their passiveness in the factory area was a bug & if you didn’t figure it out, odds are many other people wouldn’t either.
It was an old game and I’ve heard many times about the development on Portal 1/2 about how Valve doesn’t have a master plan. The voice actor for GLaDOS even said that in Portal 1’s developer commentary. I’ve also heard elsewhere that the idea for Caroline being GLaDOS came out of using the same voice actor to save money. I did not know if Valve wanted these Vortigaunts to be passive or not, but it added to the story immensely when one considers Half-Life 2.
“Say we have this glitch in Half-Life where these enemies don’t attack you. Why not make them friendly in the next game?”
Honestly, if the developers made the vortigaunts act diffrent when passive it could work out very well. In Half-Life they just stood there acting like they generaly do when they don’t know an enemy is near. I saw it as being very similar to having “notarget” on.
Hello, let me share my experience from the view of a first hands player: when i played Half Life back in '98 or '99, i wasn’t confused about the passive vortigaunts in the xen factory at all.
It was like being deeply in a bee hive or ant colony as an interloper, where the worker ants (vortigaunts) doesnt recognize you for whatever reasons… maybe due to being busy with their work, or due to lack of information (chemical messengers), whatever…
i think i saw in some documentary tv shows, that some foreign ants or insects manage it to steal into ant colonys without being recognized due to chemical camouflage or so…
However, back then it made perfect sense to me… ok, maybe there was confusion in the very first seconds, but the passive behaviour of the vortigaunt workers made perfect sense… it was an interesting glimpse into their daily hive routine…
To this day their behavior still doesn’t make any sense to me, because there’s no consistency between the maps (not just the single factory map) & no matter how you slice it without a good way to convey that their behavior changes it’s going to look like a bug. If you weren’t confused by how they acted, than you were paying just the wrong amount of attention.
You & I have two very different definitions of the word “immense.”
Founded in 2004, Leakfree.org became one of the first online communities dedicated to Valve’s Source engine development. It is more famously known for the formation of Black Mesa: Source under the 'Leakfree Modification Team' handle in September 2004.
